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Comair President "Moves On"
- Thread starter JetPilot_Mike
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doh said:
Regardless of how long you've been around your "celebrating" Randy's demise and his replacement with the likes of Fred does not say much to me about your grasp of things. It's not a question of "worrying" about Butrell, I just think you should be able to recognize that he has never been on our side. Leopards don't change their spots. Sorry, but I don't see it as a "good thing" to have a president whose loyalties are to some other company. Time will tell how much your 7 years will be worth when FB is finished "helping us to get back" to the place that HE already helped to take us out of.
While I won't argue with two of your "wishes", I also won't hestitate to tell you that we can do a LOT worse than OZ.
skydiverdriver
Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 869
I don't understand why some of you guys keep arguing with the Delta pilots about what the RJDC is all about, and about hiring their pilots. They obviously don't get it, and will keep saying the same things no matter how many times you tell them.
Even Surplus is tired of telling them, so he just ignores them. I do too. The RJDC is not trying to eliminate scope, and the Delta pilots drew first blood with the PID. Those are the facts of the case, and they are undisputed.
It's like arguing with a liberal, just a waste of time.
Even Surplus is tired of telling them, so he just ignores them. I do too. The RJDC is not trying to eliminate scope, and the Delta pilots drew first blood with the PID. Those are the facts of the case, and they are undisputed.
It's like arguing with a liberal, just a waste of time.
How do I "prove" your point? There is no language in our Pilot Agreement that limits other pilots flying CMR routes (just what is a CMR route anyway? it is not in the Definitions section), or code, or whatever you are babbling about. None.
And then Surplus contradicts himself.
There are some temporary (90 days) exemptions for dry leasing but that presumes no qualified Comair pilots and can't cause a furlough.
Once again you prove my point, the CMR PWA places arbitrary limits on other pilots and it goes beyond just dry leases.
Elimination of scope would have no effect on "allow[ing] MESA pilots to fly CMR jets on DL code flight." After all, our scope clause didn't stop Chautauqua from displacing us in Orlando or ACA from doing a substantial amount of local CVG flying for several years.
You appear confused. Elimination of scope would allow MESA pilots to fly CMR aircraft. Currently that is not the case due to your predatory scope clause. Additionally, Chq bumped you out of MCO, but they didn't bump you out of your CMR CRJ. With an RJDC victory, they could do both, since the RJDC lawsuit would prevent the CMR pilots from negotiating scope language that limits CHQ pilots from operating CMR aircraft.
There is language in the contract that if Comair were to purchase another similiar company (with what, jelly beans?) then they would have to merge them "in a fair and equitable manner" via the Allegheny-Mohwawk provisions. It does not cover dissimiliar airlines such as helicopter operations (although we have more great chopper pilots than just about anyone) or small aircraft operations, <20 seats, for example.
IOW, I was correct that the CMR PWA places arbitrary limits based on aircraft size. Naturally, the RJDC would eliminate those predatory size restrictions aswell as all other scope restrictions. Great.
Again, we have the half-empty, half-full argument, it's not that we wouldn't want to merge with those companies, rather, that is the limit to what our negotiators could achieve.
Somehow when a mainline pilot group encounters a "limit to what our negotiators could achieve", so many state that the mainline pilots don't want it.
And indeed, we still are trying to achieve a merge with ASA. You are confusing us with the DAL MEC, we want to merge. Your MEC's actions at the PID demonstrate clearly how you feel about that, they haven't come out with a new policy, have they?
Perhaps our MEC recognized the obvious, that had Delta wanted a single seniority list flying RJs they never would have scouted out less costly labor from CMR/ASA and poured billions into acquiring ASA/CMR. There was no requirement for DAL to merge lists, your PWA certainly didn't require it and neither did ours, perhaps that is the limit to what our negotiators could achieve.
And then Surplus contradicts himself.
There are some temporary (90 days) exemptions for dry leasing but that presumes no qualified Comair pilots and can't cause a furlough.
Once again you prove my point, the CMR PWA places arbitrary limits on other pilots and it goes beyond just dry leases.
Elimination of scope would have no effect on "allow[ing] MESA pilots to fly CMR jets on DL code flight." After all, our scope clause didn't stop Chautauqua from displacing us in Orlando or ACA from doing a substantial amount of local CVG flying for several years.
You appear confused. Elimination of scope would allow MESA pilots to fly CMR aircraft. Currently that is not the case due to your predatory scope clause. Additionally, Chq bumped you out of MCO, but they didn't bump you out of your CMR CRJ. With an RJDC victory, they could do both, since the RJDC lawsuit would prevent the CMR pilots from negotiating scope language that limits CHQ pilots from operating CMR aircraft.
There is language in the contract that if Comair were to purchase another similiar company (with what, jelly beans?) then they would have to merge them "in a fair and equitable manner" via the Allegheny-Mohwawk provisions. It does not cover dissimiliar airlines such as helicopter operations (although we have more great chopper pilots than just about anyone) or small aircraft operations, <20 seats, for example.
IOW, I was correct that the CMR PWA places arbitrary limits based on aircraft size. Naturally, the RJDC would eliminate those predatory size restrictions aswell as all other scope restrictions. Great.
Again, we have the half-empty, half-full argument, it's not that we wouldn't want to merge with those companies, rather, that is the limit to what our negotiators could achieve.
Somehow when a mainline pilot group encounters a "limit to what our negotiators could achieve", so many state that the mainline pilots don't want it.
And indeed, we still are trying to achieve a merge with ASA. You are confusing us with the DAL MEC, we want to merge. Your MEC's actions at the PID demonstrate clearly how you feel about that, they haven't come out with a new policy, have they?
Perhaps our MEC recognized the obvious, that had Delta wanted a single seniority list flying RJs they never would have scouted out less costly labor from CMR/ASA and poured billions into acquiring ASA/CMR. There was no requirement for DAL to merge lists, your PWA certainly didn't require it and neither did ours, perhaps that is the limit to what our negotiators could achieve.
Last edited:
FlyComAirJets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2002
- Posts
- 323
The next time you are in SLC, look for a SkyWest CRJ with a Winter Olympics paint scheme, it has a SkyWest registration number but is a former Comair aircraft that along with some others were sold during our strike. I suppose they could have sold some aircraft to Mesa so, sure, they could be fllying Comair aircraft.
I do not know if I can make this any simpler for you to understand but I will try one last time: Our scope does not limit the flying of other pilots, it only says when pilots fly similar aircraft they will be on our list and at the same payrate. What few temporary exemptions exists still specify that they would receive identical rates of pay and work rules so there is no economic incentive for the company to do so. Our scope is not similar to the predatory nature of your scope.
What you fail repeatedly to grasp is that our scope seeks to be "inclusive," that is, to define what our flying is (the original meaning of scope) rather than mainline scope which has evolved into something that is "exclusive," which seeks to limit the numbers and missions of aircraft that they chose not to fly. It's as if the DAL MEC position is that 'we don't want to fly these aircraft, but we don't want the DCI carriers to fly them either.' And when your MEC figuratively hoisted his middle finger at the ASA/CMR pilots at the PID, he did just that.
As for Chautauqua/Republic, since they are not ALPA-represented but rather Teamsters, there should be no reason for a conflict of interests here, right? I expect my union to conduct themselves in our best interest and hold them accountable for such. The courts understand the union's fudiciary (that means they take my money, I have a twenty year ALPA pin to prove it) responsibility is to us, not to them.
We are on our fourth contract, the ASA pilots are currently negotiating their third. How many contracts over the years has the DAL MEC negotiated, a couple dozen perhaps? I don't see the ASA/CMR pilot contracts headed in the same wrong direction as yours. Every move overtly and behind the scenes indicate that the DAL MEC has aligned itself with management and sought to keep the companies separate. And with ALPA's blessing, it probably will remain so.
Illegal, perhaps not, but short-sghted, most certainly.
I do not know if I can make this any simpler for you to understand but I will try one last time: Our scope does not limit the flying of other pilots, it only says when pilots fly similar aircraft they will be on our list and at the same payrate. What few temporary exemptions exists still specify that they would receive identical rates of pay and work rules so there is no economic incentive for the company to do so. Our scope is not similar to the predatory nature of your scope.
What you fail repeatedly to grasp is that our scope seeks to be "inclusive," that is, to define what our flying is (the original meaning of scope) rather than mainline scope which has evolved into something that is "exclusive," which seeks to limit the numbers and missions of aircraft that they chose not to fly. It's as if the DAL MEC position is that 'we don't want to fly these aircraft, but we don't want the DCI carriers to fly them either.' And when your MEC figuratively hoisted his middle finger at the ASA/CMR pilots at the PID, he did just that.
As for Chautauqua/Republic, since they are not ALPA-represented but rather Teamsters, there should be no reason for a conflict of interests here, right? I expect my union to conduct themselves in our best interest and hold them accountable for such. The courts understand the union's fudiciary (that means they take my money, I have a twenty year ALPA pin to prove it) responsibility is to us, not to them.
We are on our fourth contract, the ASA pilots are currently negotiating their third. How many contracts over the years has the DAL MEC negotiated, a couple dozen perhaps? I don't see the ASA/CMR pilot contracts headed in the same wrong direction as yours. Every move overtly and behind the scenes indicate that the DAL MEC has aligned itself with management and sought to keep the companies separate. And with ALPA's blessing, it probably will remain so.
Illegal, perhaps not, but short-sghted, most certainly.
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