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Capt below mins question

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sleepy said:
At ASA they teach you to say, "Captain, I'm not comfortable with that". That should take care of it.
Click to expand...
That'll work at altitude, but I don't think there's much time for "discomfort" below mins with a vector into the dirt.

Assertiveness is not a bad quality, especially when death or injury is imminent.

"GO AROUND!"

"MISSED APPROACH!"

"__________ !" (fill in the blank with your operation's standard verbiage for initiating the Missed Approach procedure)
 
By the time you said go around the second time, your wheels would have been chirping... Then you tell the a**hole that if he does it again, you will kick his a**. You want to kill yourself, go for it. Leave me out of it.TC
 
On thing is for sure....it's not a time to mess around wasting time. Safety is first and you had best make a decision quickly that will insure that. It may end up being taking the aircraft because the flying pilot has a problem. It may also end up that you assetviely remind the flying pilot of what he is doing, while backing him up. There is plenty of time to sort things out on the ground.
 
It is the duty of the FO to inform the captain of his error as many times as it takes. If the captain deliberatly violates FAR or Ops Spec, I would make it very clear to him about it and get it on the voice recorder, such as, "Captain, we cannot continue the approach with xxxx weather, do you agree?" I would also at least get "go around" on the voice recorder. After landing I would pull the circuit breaker to the voice recorder, then ask the captain for an explanation of his actions. If unsatisfactory, then professional standards at the union immediately gets a call for advice. Baring advice from PS, if you're mid-sequence and starting another leg almost right away and you've decided that this guy is scaring you, then I'd advise him that either he can call in sick and remove himself from the sequence or we can talk about it in the chief pilot's office instead of with professional standards. His choice.
 
I'm assuming you are looking for some various answers to this scenerio if asked on an interview. I used to ask this question but not for the reasons you might think. When I was asking a technical question to a applicant and he/she got a minimums question wrong or told me the wrong minimum applied to a approach we were reviewing, I'd immedietely put them in a scenerio like the above. I'd ask them what they would do if they were in an EMB/ATR etc and the captain descended to XXX( the correct minimum but below the minimum the applicant incorectly gave). Some would instantly take the controls or call the tower. These applicants were displaying their innability to believe that they might be incorrect. Some would tell the captain that they were going too low but later in the discussion would tell me that they would ask him/her after they landed. The applicants that were not where we wanted them to be on this issue were the ones who were wrong but couldn't admit it to me (or the captain in the scenerio) and insisted on fighting for the controls of the airplane at a low altitude. Some were told before the interview to never change their answer to a question. That was unfortunate because they were wrong and then were put into a scenerio that further made them look bad in the interview. Interviewers want you to show respect for the captain up to a point. Fighting for controls below 200' agl is not a good thing even if you are correct.

Good luck in all interviews!
 
<Head Shaking>

Here is how I answer it. First before I even start each leg I am evaluating my partner and listening very closely to him/her and always looking for distractors (ie personal issues that create distraction or get homeitis). When I check the ATIS or weather for the airport (weather marginal or at minimums) I start discussing where we are going if we can't get in if the destination goes below minimums and how long we are going to be able to hold. The plants the correct seeds for both of us.

So ultimately at the moment when you call minimums and he or she continues below, first thing and foremost look over and make sure your flying partner is conscious and not having a medical emergency. After that there is a great debate about announcing the go around on the radio or reaching up behind his or her hands and pushing up the power. Fighting for controls down low is just as dangerous as someone ducking under. Just my two cents.

Fly safe,
Humble
 
In the part of the world that I fly, an f.o. would unfortunately NEVER question or challange the cpt. Also, the f.o. will probably be targeted as the cause if there is an incident/accident. Acft Cpts. are revered, they can do no wrong in the public and political eye. You can imagine some of the egos. It happens more often than one would think.

Here, nothing would get done if we never went below published mins. You must know the enviroment intimitely. You also need to make sure that your f.o. knows that he is there to work with you and not for you. Capts. that are from the region are real good pilots but they treat their crews like they are there to serve, do nothing unless told to.

Fortunately, up north, people are held acountable for their f.up's.
I'm not sure, but I don't think that it is very common for a 121 CREW to bust mins intentionally unless they have a believeable reason that can be explained to the man.

Fly safe.
 
One Star Disappointment

I espied the one star rating on this thread and clicked on it with the same guilty enthusiasm one has when rubbernecking past a car accident.

To my dismay, however, I found in IAHERJ's post one of the most insightful and complex thoughts I've read. Being overbearing may be okay. Being wrong may be okay. But put the two together and we got problems.

Things ain't always as they seem. Or rather, things ain't always as we perceive. Our perception of things is often skewed by a bunch of things: lack of experience, or too much experience, or mother issues (in my case, I don't think I was breast fed long enough), or fatigue, or whatever.

Taking the pipes from the aircraft commander is a pretty big deal. Not to say it's inconceivable, but many of the people with more militant responses to this question have probably themselves gone Decision Height Two Potato before in their career. (not me. I've never once come close to deviating from any FAR or SOP. For example, to be on the safe side, I never fly faster than 200 knots below 10,000'.)

There's a difference between how you'd react when the aircraft is in or is definitely headed for extremis and how you'd participate in a testosterone fueled conflict about who's right.

And if I ever say anything just to get my voice on the CVR, I'll know it's really time to get the number for that truck driving school.
 
a-v-8er said:
Just curious... What would you do if the Capt went below minimums during an approach? and what if he/she said "don't worry about it" if you challange him/her?
Click to expand...

Bring the gear up as I said "Gear UP, GO AROUND at the Top of my LUNGS" of course pushing the throttles to the wall would also occur if they did not respond to the Crew Call: Go-Around!!!........

Next Issue????
 
Last edited:
SafetyTheSeat,

I hope your minimums are pretty high because pulling the gear up at 100 feet or even 50 feet in my airplane and many others would cause contact with the runway even if the guy executed a perfect go-around from the time he noticed your raising of the gear. Heck, we touch the wheels on a go-around from a cat II or high cat III and consider that normal and expected. I think the yelling might be in order however I'd think about raising the gear on my own while the captain is flying.

IAHERJ
 

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