ATP written (still current?)

skytrucker

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Any 135 guys know if yout ATP written stays (endifinately) current while you are working under part 135 rules? I read the reg. on this, and I'm still confused. Anyone with past experience on this, let me know.

thanks
 

avbug

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Your knowledge report doesn't stay current. However, you may take the practical test with an expired knowledge report for the ATP, so long as you are employed by a certificate holder under Parts 121, 125, or 135, and you have completed the PIC qualification training program for your employer.

If you are assigned as SIC, but have completed the PIC qualification training program, this applies. The knowledge report may be used, even though expired...so long as you remain employed by the certificate holder. You do not need to be a captain or pilot in command.

If you are assigned as SIC and have not completed the PIC qualification training program for your company, this does not apply. The knowledge report may not be used once expired.
 

HAL

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One other note - you must have been employed with the carrier continuously from the day you take the test. Any breaks in employment and the situation described above doesn't apply.

HAL
 

Bluto

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You sure about that Hal? The way I read the reg it simply states that you can take the test with an expired report if you are employed by a 135, 121, etc. carrier at the time of the *practical* test. It doesn't seem to say anything about when you took the knowledge test. Anyone care to comment?
 

flydog

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I disagree with Hal. There is no reference to any breaks in employment. As long as you are employed by a 135 or 121 carrier as Avbug stated you can take the test with an expired knowledge test report
 

pilotyip

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current test

The test must be valid on the first day of employment and remains valid as long as the employee remains employed at the same Part 135 or 121 carrier. The part 135 test can also be used for a part 121 ATP. We had a DA-20 F/O who took the 135 ATP written, but bid the DC-9 before making Captain, 3 years later he became a Captain on the DC-9 and used his part 135 ATP written. FAA said OK.
 

skytrucker

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Clear as mud...

I'm hoping that one of you who replied to the post will check it again...

I took the ATP written before I was hired by the company. The written will be no longer current after june. I am still employed by the same company and am PIC for an aircraft the doesn't require an ATP.

1. If I went somewhere else to get my ATP practical (ALL ATP's) after june, would they accept the non-current written?

2. If I upgrade to an aircraft that requires an ATP through the company and compleate the qualification training program, then the non-current ATP written can be used? (I think that's a YES)


Thanks again for the previous posts. Hopefully someone can clear up these details for me.
 

AWACoff

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And what about it staying legit for furloughed guys? I took my ATP written while at Lakes. It was still valid when I went to Air Willy...but then I was furloughed. It sounds like when I get recalled, I can use the expired knowledge test when I upgrade...just want to clarify this.
 

avbug

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There appears to be some confusion on this issue. The purpose of 61.39(b) is to recognize the role of ongoing employment training while working under a certificate holder...for whom the ATP is required when acting as PIC.

The rule allows an individual who has a current knowledge report when hired, to use that report when it expires...so long as the employee is still employed with that same employer. The employment must be continuous. An employee on furlough is no longer employed (despite allowances for seniority numbers, etc). An employee on furlough is not granted ongoing proficiency or currency training, checkrides, line checks, etc. A furloughed employee is no longer employed by the certificate holder, and does not enjoy the protections with respect to the knowledge report, as outlined in 61.39(b).

If at any time an employee loses his or her employment, or changes to a different certificate holder, the test may no longer be used. A current test result must be obtained.

One way to think of it is that your employer is "keeping your results alive" by keeping you employed. If you are let go, furloughed, quit, change to a different operator, etc, your benifit ceases. You must have a new test result.

If it's been two years, you should probably study and retake the test anyway. There is nothing wrong with study, and from a practical point of view, interviews are often molded around the ATP written test in many respects. Many professionals keep a copy of the ATP written study guides available and current, even though they have their ATP already.
 

avbug

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Skytrucker,

To answer your question, if you had a current knowledge test report when hired, and it has expired during the course of your employment, but you are still employed by the same certificate holder, then yes, you may use the report. You may use it during upgrade training within the company if you are granted an ATP ride in conjunction with your type or upgrade training (a paperwork issue largely, but a necessary formality). You may use it at a private vendor, such as ALL ATP's.

If you use an outside vendor, you must have completed the pilot-in-command qualifcation program established by your company. Again, if you are a SIC but have completed this training program, you may use the expired results. If you are an SIC but have not completed this program, you may not.

Simply being employed by the certificate holder does NOT provide protection for your knowledge exam report. 61.39(b)(1)(i) specifically identifies completion of the company pilot-in-command aircraft qualification training program. Your training records must reflect this.

If you take your practical test with a vendor, you will need verification of continuous and ongoing employment under 121, 125, or 135. This documentation should accompany your 8710 on application. You may use various forms of evidence, from a letter on company letterhead attesting to your employment, to pay stubs, to copies of training records or other such documentation. You may also use your logbook.

As stated above, you must not only show evidence of employment, but of completion of the certificate holder's PIC aircraft qualification training program. If you meet these criteria and can show them satisfactorily, then you may use the expired report. If not, then the report will do no good.
 

skydiverdriver

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I thought the report had to expire while you were employed under 121 or 135. When you took it doesn't matter. It's the expiration date we are talking about here.
 

avbug

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Okay, last time.

The report never need expire. It's better to take the practical with a current test, and with the material fresh in your mind. However...

You take the test. You get employed by a 121, 125, or 135 carrier. The test expires.

So long as you stay employed with THAT carrier, you may still take the practical test.

You get furloughed. Test is no good.

You move to a different carrier. Test is no good.

You quit or get fired. Test is no good.

When you take the test makes no difference. It never made any difference. Forget the date you take the test.

The issue is the validity of an expired test result. It is only valid if you are working for a 121, 125, or 135 carrier at the time of expiration, and it only stays valid during the course of your employment. If there is a break in employment, a change to a different operator, or a furlough, then the test ceases to be "good."
 

skytrucker

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blinded by the light...

AVBUG

I see the light! (Actually about three post's ago) Thanks for clearing that up.

Are you a DE? If not, ever thought about becoming one? You give out a lot of good free advise. Maybe we should be paying you. :)


thanks again
 

A Squared

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Alright, I've been following this thread and I have to put my oar in the water.

Avbug (and HAL and Pilotyip) You claim that in order to use an expired knowledge test you must have been employed when it expired, and employed continuously since then. I have read all the posts very carefully, and I have read 61.39(b) very carefully. I cannot find anything in the text of 61.39(b) which supports these statements. I have included the complete text of 61.39(b) below. The relevant part reads:

".........provided that the applicant:

(1) Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter AT THE TIME OF THE PRACTICAL TEST and........." (emphasis added)

This clearly establishes a requirement to be employed at the time of the test, but there is nothing that states, or even remotely hints that the employment must have been continuous. There is nothing that says "....must have been employed at the time the knowledge test expired....." OR ".......employment must have been continuous.....", or "...must have been employed by the same certificate holder....."

None of this appears in the regulation. The text of the regulation is simple, clear and to the point. It says "...employed by......at the time of the practical test....", nothing more, nothing less. The only other condition requires completion of the PIC training program.

If you beleive that the employment must be continuous, by the same carrier, since the knowledge test expired, that belief must be based on something other than the text of the regulation. The only valid sources would be a FAA Chief Counsel interpretation, or case law. Can any of you quote an FAA legal counsel opinion, or judicial decision which supports you decision? Is there perhaps another regulation which is relevant that I have missed? If not, I beleive that you are incorrect, as the regulation, as it is written, does not support your statements.


Regards




61.39(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a)(1) and (2) of this section, an applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate or an additional rating to an airline transport certificate may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that the applicant:

(1) Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved --

(i) Pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; and

(ii) Qualification training requirements appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; or

(2) Is employed as a flight crewmember in scheduled U.S. military air transport operations at the time of the practical test, and has accomplished the pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought.
 

tdvalve

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A Squared, IHMO you're correct. Part 61 USED to require continuous employment at a 121 or military operation, etc. Avbug is correctly defining the requirements that existed before the regulation was revised. I believe the continuous employment requirement was deleted in 1997, although it may have been earlier.
 

avbug

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TD,

I looked a little more, and the change was made in 1982 (documented below)

A Squared,

As I dig deeper on the issue, I'm inclined to agree with you (I'm having a festival of errors lately). I've included four sets of evidences on the matter, at least two of which specifically address your comments, and agree with them. The other two are nebulous, but gain clarification when considered with the former.

Two FAA Orders give guidance on this issue, but are not consistent in the description of the application of 61.39(b). Additionally, two legal interpretations give guidance, and are at odds. However, the most pertinent guidance is found in FAA Order 8600.10, which specifically states that the employment does not need to be continuous.


FAA Order 8400.10 (Air Transportation Operations Inspector's Handbook)
Volume 5, Chapter 2 Section 1, Paragraph 65:

65. EXTENDING VALIDITY PERIOD OF WRITTEN TEST RESULTS - FAR § 61.39(b).. Inspectors and examiners shall not accept expired knowledge test reports except under the following conditions:

A. Parts 121 and 135 Flightcrew. Flight crewmembers employed by Part 121 operators or Part 135 commuter operators in either airplanes or helicopters must meet the following requirements to extend the validity date of the knowledge test:
B.
(1) An applicant must have been employed by a U.S. air carrier operating under FAR Part 121 or as a commuter air carrier under FAR Part 135 within the period ending 24 calendar months after the month in which the applicant passed the first of any required knowledge test.

(2) An applicant for an oral or flight test must be currently employed as a flight crewmember by a Part 121 operator or a Part 135 commuter operator. An applicant is not required to have been continuously employed in a qualifying position, provided the applicant meets the requirements of this subparagraph and the preceding subparagraph.

FYI: Employment by a Part 135 on-demand operator does not qualify an applicant for an extension.

(3) An applicant must be participating in a training program which includes a recurrent training curriculum and must have completed initial, transition, or upgrade training, as appropriate, in accordance with Part 121 or Part 135.



FAA Order 8700.1 (General Aviation Operations Inspector's Handbook)
Volume 2, Chapter 7, Section 1, Paragraph 5F:

F. Extension of Test Date. In addition to the provisions of § 61.39(b)(1) for pilots employed by 14 CFR parts 121 and 135 operators, the following provision is made for military applicants. An applicant for an ATP certificate or rating may take the practical test if, within the period ending 24 calendar-months after the month in which the applicant passed the first of any required knowledge tests, the applicant participated as a pilot in a pilot training program of a U.S. scheduled military air transportation service and is currently participating in that program.

(1) An inspector accepting an application for an ATP practical test from a person meeting the above criteria should review the evidence presented by the applicant indicating eligibility for this extension of the expiration date of the knowledge test.

(2) If the applicant's evidence is acceptable, the inspector adds a note to the certification file indicating that the expiration date of the knowledge test is extended under the provisions of 61.39(b)(2). It is not necessary to include a copy of the applicant's evidence with the certification file.



June 13, 1985


Subject: Interpretation of FAR 61.39(b)(1)

John J. Callahan
Acting Regional Counsel, ANM-78

John Frank
Manager ACI Unit, FSDO-61

We are writing in response to your May 24, 1985, memorandum in which you request an interpretation of the validity of the ATR written exam taken by First Officer Jack Hooks, Western Airlines.

It is our understanding that Mr. Hooks passed the ATR written examination in March 1969 and, since that time, has been continuously employed as a pilot for Western Airlines. He is considering taking a leave of absence for approximately two years and has questioned whether, following such leave, his ATR written exam would still be valid.

Federal Aviation Regulation 61.39(b)(1) states in pertinent part that, "Notwithstanding the requirement of 61.39(a)(1) that an applicant for a flight test must have passed a written examination since the beginning of the 24 month before the month in which he takes the flight test.

"... an applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate or rating may take the flight test for that certificate or rating if --

(1) the applicant

(i) within the period ending within 24 calendar months after the month in which the applicant passed the first of any required written test, was employed as a flight crewmember by U.S. air carrier or commercial operator operating under Part 121 or a commuter air carrier under Part 135 ... and is employed by such a certificate holder at the time of the flight test;

(ii) Has completed initial training, and if appropriate, transition or upgrade training; and

(iii) Meets the current training requirements of the applicable part ... ."
For the sake of our interpretation, we have assumed that Mr. Hooks was employed by Western Airlines within 24 calendar months after the time he passed the ATR written exam and that, upon his return to Western Airlines he will satisfy the appropriate training requirements prior to applying for his flight test.

Federal Aviation Regulation 61.39(b) was amended on April 28, 1982. Prior to that, the Regulation required that the applicant must have been continuously employed as a pilot or pilot flight engineer and currently participating in a training program by a certificated air carrier or commercial operator. The FAA determined that rule was too restrictive and replaced it with the current FAR 61.39(b).

Based upon the current requirements of Federal Aviation Regulation 61.39 it would appear that Mr. Hooks, upon his return to Western Airlines and satisfaction of the training requirements would be eligible to take the flight test for his airline transport pilot certificate.




JAN. 19, 1979

JOHN LENAHAN, ESQ.

Dear Mr. Lenahan:

This is in response to your letter of December 27, 1978, concerning the qualifications required for an airline transport pilot certificate by section 61.153 of the Federal Aviation Regulations. You ask whether the written test required by that section is effective indefinitely or for a two year period, depending upon whether a pilot passes the test before or after commencing employment with an airline.

Section 61.153 prescribes the aeronautical knowledge requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane rating. The section gives the subjects which an applicant must pass on the written test.

The duration of the written test for the airline transport pilot certificate or an additional aircraft rating on that certificate, or any certificate or rating issued under Part 61, is determined by the provisions of section 61.39, Prerequisites for flight tests. That section provides, in pertinent part, that:

To be eligible for a flight test for a certificate, or aircraft or instrument rating issued under this part, the applicant must --

(1) Have passed any required written test since the beginning of the 24th month before the month in which he takes the flight test. . . .
This rule applies generally to applicants for flight tests. An exception is made in section 61.39(b) which states that:

An applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate or an additional aircraft rating on that certificate who has been, since passing the written examination, continuously employed as a pilot, or as a pilot assigned to flight engineer duties by, and is participating in an approved pilot training program of a U.S. air carrier or commercial operator, or who is rated as a pilot by, and is participating in a pilot training program of a U.S. scheduled military air transportation service, may take the flight test for that certificate or rating.

Thus, an applicant who is so employed since passing the written test may take the flight test at any time, as long as the applicant remains employed and is participating in the program. An applicant who is not so employed does not fall under the exception provided by section 61.39(b) and therefore must have passed a written test since the 24th month before taking the flight test.
We trust this satisfactorily responds to your request.

Sincerely,

CARL B. SCHELLENBERG
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
Office of the Chief Counsel
 
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