APA Proposal Posted

[pylut]

Of course aa pilots should try to steal as many Eagle jobs as possible. Look how well the jobs they stole from TWA have protected there junior scaabs so far!

 

[jetexas]

If no eagle pilots loose their job, and they only have to "suffer" stagnation for a while, whats the problem. Do you really think the AA pilots should agree to allow unlimited RJ's furlough 2200 ADDITIONAL pilots and not get one of their guys employment?

Try and look at this from the eyes of the Eagle pilot.
Our union tried for years prior to 9/11 to get APA amenable to a merge between AA and Eagle. APA had nothing to do with it. Eagle pilots tried and tried and tried to go to AA from Eagle from 98-01. Approximately 250 of 3000 hired "off the street" during that time came from Eagle. 124 "flowed" through (though we had been told that %50 of AA new hires would be from Eagle).
According to Aviation Week, AA pilots fly an average of 38 hours a month. We fly twice that and get paid a fraction of what you guys do.
Things go bad. AMR needs to make some cuts. Again, Eagle gets stomped. We have "suffered stagnation" for quite some time now ... long before 9/11. Most regionals upgrade in 18 months to 3 years to jet captain, max. Eagle was taking twice that and up to 10 years for the jet before 9/11. Now, with the latest proposal, we may never upgrade to captain. I ask you, Is making $25,000 a year flying a jet for 10-20 years fair?
sure you can say that we say "poor poor pitiful me" like 'trainerjet'. That's not the case. We do have pride. We work hard over here at Eagle and, in general just try to do as good as we can with what we have.
Its just that we, at Eagle, have watched the party go on for years and years over at AA and we were'nt invited. Now, the party is over and those same folks at AA want to come here to Eagle. No one wants to see anyone furloughed, but to just step right in as Captains here at Eagle when our dreams and aspirations for years have revolved around that is unconscionable.
Yeah, things are tough all over. Perhaps it is'nt fair that Eagle should grow while APA furloughs. But to take ALL future Eagle growth, instead of a percentage and to not even invite the Eagle MEC or ALPA to talk about the carving out of Eagle is questionable ethics indeed.

 

[FastPilot]

American pilots are not interested in working for eagle. They are "liberalizing" their scope and they are going to fly the RJ's for your rates, not for your company.

I believe that AA has an agreement with Boeing to only buy Boeing aircraft. That being the case, the only way that APA pilots can fly RJs is by doing it at Eagle. Second point, just what paint scheme do you think will be on the RJ?

 

[General Lee]

We at Delta are proposing to management the addition of all new 70 seaters (after DCI gets their 57) go to furloughed (past and hopefully not future...) pilots. Our VP of flight ops said he would like that if the rates were close to Comiar's. I personally believe that our guys would take those positions with a smile, and wait to go back to mainline in the future. The AA guys that will be flying the RJ's with 51 or more seats will also be eligible for AA retirement---which is good. Face it, if not one DCI pilot loses his job, then what is he/she complaining about? They have had huge growth in the last 2 years, at Mainline's expense. Hopefully this downturn will be over in the next couple years, and expansion will take over eventually. Then after the furloughs come back, we will welcome ASA pilots and a smattering of other pilots to mainline. Some new hires might have to go to the 70 seat jet, but it is a heck of a lot nicer than a DC-9, and they will be on the senority list, with a chance to someday fly a lime green Song 757. It really is a nice plane to fly.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Johnlp3]

AA and APA reach TA

I will post more information as soon as I get it.
John P.
Airline Pilot Contracts

 

[eaglefly]

For everyones sake, they should be in seperate crew lounges and training events. From what i've heard it would look like Bagdad if they were mixed.

 

[surplus1]

Try and look at this from the eyes of the Eagle pilot. ....

Jetexas, eaglefly,

With all due respect, the Eagle pilots have not really tried to defend themselves against the AA group. What you have tried to do is "flow" to AA and, in the process, concede your flying in an effort to get some of theirs. I really hate to say this because I truly feel sorry for all of you, but the truth is the handwriting has been on the wall for a long time and you have been so busy trying to "get a mainline job" that you haven't taken care of your own jobs.

You said that "folks at AA want to come here to Eagle." I disagree. They do not want to come to Eagle, they want to eliminate Eagle. They can't quite do that so they are content with transferring as many Eagle jobs to American as they can. What they are doing is grand theft equipment and grand theft jobs. No, its not "ethical" but this has nothing to do with ethics. It's about money and power. There are no ethics in your "union" (ALPA) and there are none in their union (APA). The sooner you come to accept that, the better off you'll be. That's not "nice" but it is certainly true.

In this business, when the chips are down, its dog eat dog. Theres' nothing "new" about that. ALL of the "big five" pilot groups have traditionally taken advantage of every under dog to the extent they could, whenever they could, througout their existence. If you expect that to change, you will be disappointed.

For a long time a lot of people have been trying to tell you that the AA pilots were out to take your airplanes and your flying. You responded by trying to "make love" to them while all they were interested in doing was planning to screw you, without as much as a kiss. Now that they've apparently done it, why are you complaining? It may well be too late now, so take the $2 they left on the night stand and feel good.

If the TA passes, they will have succeded in taking your CRJ-700s and the Captain slots in your smaller jets. You still, based on your posts and those of your fellow pilot eaglefly, don't seem to get it. There is no such thing as "fair" in this business and there never has been.

Don't worry eaglefly, from the looks of the TA, they won't be in your crew lounge, but your airplanes will be in their "hangar" and it is YOU that will not be in THEIR crew lounge. Based on the TA, they are agreeing to fly your airplanes for less money than you get to fly them now. They are underbidding you for the flying (that's the only way it can be "cost competitive").

They are using your jobs and your futures as one of their bargaining chips. They've been doing that for a long time. You can't really expect your "union" to do anything about that, for it sanctions the very same thing by one "ALPA carrier" against another "ALPA carrier", which is far worse. At least the APA is not your union and its members have NO responsibility to protect your interests. They are protecting themselves (which is their right) and YOU, gentlemen, have not been doing much to protect yourselves. It appears you will now pay the price.

Here are some thoughts of others that might apply to your situation as well as ours.

"If you make yourselves sheep, the wolves will eat you."
- Benjamin Franklin-

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." - Winston Churchill

 

[surplus1]

Some may call it "liberate" insted of "steal". It all depends on what side of the fence you are on.

I guess it does. Some will find that others are less amenable to "liberation" and will resist the robber by all available means.

"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw

 

[eaglefly]

No Surplus, they have agreed to fly CRJ-700's and "excess" 50 seaters EQUAL to our rates and work rules.

But you are correct, without negotiaition from our MEC they WILL have to start a "new" carrier and yes, they HAVE stabbed us in the back.

The TA states that 70+ seaters will go to mainline if "cost competetive".

In order to fly "excess" 50 seaters they'll either have to add them to mainline (with mainline mechanics and F/A's) or start a new carrrier with a new operating certificate and management structure. That will take time and money.

If they want to get the benefit of our certificate and its lower costs associated with useage of our facilities (crew lounge, mixed training classes and events, mixing of aircraft, etc.), it will REQUIRE agreement by our MEC and pilots.

Our contract CANNOT be unilaterally modified by the APA nor AMR (outside of BK). There are NO provisions for some of the things they want to do. In fact there is language prohibiting it. So they either spend considerable time and money starting a new carrier or negotiate with us.

Our CURRENT aircraft AND ROUTES cannot be transferred except in accordance with our CBA.

The details are not in, but AMR has got to know that mixing our pilots under these circumstances would be like mixing the Isrealis and the palestinians.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

If Delta and Dalpa come up with plans to furlough more (which they probably will....), you should plan on Dalpa making deals to get the furloughs in CRJ70's (not necessarily the ones you already have...)---but new ones. I really can see this happening now, and I know the VP of Flt Ops---Joe kolshack---said it would be possible with the right rates---which I am sure Dalpa would accept now----because dues are dues---and they want the $$$$ over there at ALPA National. It just makes sense, unfortunately.

Bye Bye---General Lee