ALPA pro's and con's

[TwinTails]

ALPA or not?

I may choose a side here if and when I fly for Mr. Fatfingers and the Airlines, but until then I am just an observer trying to soak up all the little tid bits of information and the pro's and con's of being union or non.

One thing I do observe, on this board and in person, is that the majority of the high timer old farts retired or close to it lean in the anti-union direction.

Do they know something that the rest of us who are in the the midst and the begining of our carreers don't??

At this point in my life whether a pilot is union or not doesn't by any means make or break my respect for the person. Although, some of you will say it should, based on the fact that things will be worse for me when I get there because of them. Are you sure of this? I think the decision to cross a line would have alot to do with ones personal situation and the overall condition of the economy of the industry at that time.

What about airlines where the pilots have stock and a vote in major decisions? Is this something that works? How does SWA and Jet Blue have such a good working relationship between pilots and managment?

Anyway just some thoughts and questions like I said, I don't presently lean one way or another. Maybe after a few good arguments on here I will.

 

[tintube]

There are a bunch of threads about this issue on this board.

I think it is very simple: if there was not a need for pilots to have a union ( another words, if the management would treat us fair ) there will not be any.

 

[eicas2000]

ALPA

It all depends on who you work for..
Beneficial if it's a major..you're a pawn if it's a commuter.

Try to get a copy of flying the line..It says there are no second class citizens in ALPA..there may be no second class citizens..but now they have third class citizens, thanks to Jet For Jobs.

 

[B737G]

I was happy with ALPA while at ASA and am happy with ALPA at DAL as well. ALPA provided us with the necessary resources to negotiate the current ASA contract which was considered a big step in the right direction for the ASA pilot group. I do not agree with any organization or person 100% of the time and ALPA is no different.

 

[Jetsnake]

One my last unit's sayings was
"PAX PER POTEN" meaning
"Peace thru Power"
You could say that this would apply to ALPA
as well, it just doesn't work that way however.
Some of my peer's would say "There's the
Old CORPS, and there's the New CORPS...
I would always say B.S. "How about the CORPS
right now."

One must now there history, or they shall
repeat it.

I don't think ALPA ever anticipated the growth
in numbers from what they call regional airline
pilots or ever having to deal with scope, while
ALPA did forsee this some what; present scope
clause and all. No one could conclude what transpired
on 9/11. This has changed the whole industry
forever. Hence the industry as it is now.

I for one, am not pro union, I will say that with the
company I'm with, Our MEC negotiated one hell of a contract.
It wasn't ALPA people coming in, it was our own company
pilot's that were elected along with a outstanding attorney
and an understanding mgt. that met = at one point and
agreed to what we have today. While I don't always
agree personally with either our MEC or LEC. They did
a great job in our contract. And I commend them on a job
well done. The majority of these pilots were informed that
they would be working for UAL(in 1991) and it never transpired.
To take in under 200 pilots during a buy out of a company
and then re-nig on the deal was/and is unacceptable.
This being because the present pilot group(UAL) at the time(1991)
felt this to be unworthy for whatever reason.
Perhaps they thought they would lose a number in bidding
there monthly schedule, I'm not sure, I've never been able
to get a definitive answer.

It's not for those reason's I'm not pro union, it's because
I don't think my dues should go to a PAC supporting politicians
in there re-election campaign when I have no desire to have to
vote for them let alone vote for things I really don't believe in.
I've been a ALPA memeber for over 2 years in good standing.
I have requested several things from ALPA and have never
gotten a response either from ALPA or my own MEC.

I want to know to where our dues go, and to whom...
And why; such a contribution was made.

I neither want to here that ALPA sent out a quarterly
summary. I want ALPA accountabilitly just as the rest of
Corporate America has to be.
Does ALPA have to be, they should be. I want to know exactly,
where my dues are going...

I've requested this from our own LEC and MEC and have yet
to get a respose in 6 months.

I know that ALPA is bigger than this, but just ponder on these
numbers.

30,000 members, times $30,000 a year at .0195% of your
wages=$17,550,000/YR. As a share holder, do I not reserve
the right to know where every penny goes. And this is
not even close to the last summary of funds I saw in ALPA.
My $1300/Yr plus Rag that I won't even let my daughter open.

I have to be frugle about my checking account, don't know about
you. But I'd like a real break down of ALPA.

What is the average salary, who is the highest paid, the lowest
paid, medium income of Airlilne Pilots paying dues to ALPA. I have yet to get a response.

"WHY" I just want to know, and I think our members are
entitled to it. And why can't we find out what the ALPA President
is making per year. And all of his helpers...

I smell FISH, and it ain't my girlfriend or my wife...

Jetsnake

 

[TwinTails]

Thanks iecas2000,

Flying the Line sounds like a good read.


If management treated us fair and gave us all everything we wanted we'd all be asking for more, more, more. Gotta look at it from there point of vew too. It's a delicate relationship that very few seem to keep in good working order.

I think being owner/operator turned productive-private-135/fractioinal operation owner is an attainable goal. Screw working for the man, be the man.

 

[Publishers]

Ludicrous

For many in this country, the fact that a group who makes in excess of what 99% of the country makes is somewhat ludicrous, especially when they run around acting like they are some oppressed people subject to the whim of the man.

Unions in this country were not conceived with a bunch of pilots in mind, trust me on that. In fact, they were conceived in a different time to address different problems.

Safety issues are also bandied about, like the world would settle for and management could hide the facts from the governing bodies. Not likely.

The fact is that ALPA or APA or whatever are merely organized nogotiating committee's. As a combined force, they have used their power to contract for wages that are more likely than not better than they would have been without them.

The rest is rhetoric.

 

[tintube]

"Safety issues are also bandied about, like the world would settle for and management could hide the facts from the governing bodies. Not likely"


-So you never worked for a ununionized company that told you to take a plane you considered unsafe or take the road? I have heard about a bunch of them.


"The fact is that ALPA or APA or whatever are merely organized negotiating committee's."

-So what you are saying is that a organization like ALPA does not serve a purpose outside contract negotiations???

" As a combined force, they have used their power to contract for wages that are more likely than not better than they would have been without them."

How can you claim this? Please explain.

 

[enigma]

Airline pilots are unionized because unionization is the only way to stop management from accessing the available supply of cheaper labor. Think of it this way, the number of pilots has historically outnumbered the number of available jobs. Simple economics tells us that such an oversupply exerts downward pressure on wages. Enter the union. A unionized workforce has Federal protections that give the union a legal monopoly on labor at their employer.

As for the pros and cons, the pros are too numerous to mention (but they include protection against: favortism, being fired without cause, being forced into unsafe operations, etc) and the only con that I can think of is that at the national level, unions are run by the same selfish types that run companies.
If the head of ALPA was truly a benevolent dictator, we would all have pretty nice feelings about unionization. Unfortunately, ALPA has historically been run for the benefit of the senior members of the major airline groups. If ALPA ever decides to treat all member groups equally, we will have one heck of a good deal.

You ask about the companies that seem to have good employee/employer relations. I don't work for any of those companies, but it is my perception that those companies treat their people with respect. SWA's motto (paraphrased) is that employees are number one; and if employees are treated as number one, they will pass the treatment to the customers who will support the business. Smart employers like Herb Kelleher and David Neelman understand that an oversupply of pilots/workers doesn't justify treating those workers poorly.

regards,
8N

 

[B737G]

ALPA does quite a lot more than negotiate. Thanks to the persistence of ALPA, several accidents that were blamed on pilot error were later learned to be caused by a mechanical problem. I believe the ASA crash in Brunswick, GA is an example. A few years ago several FAs and one 767FO at DAL were fired for the results of a random drug test. They did not test positive but, the lab said their samples had been diluted. They were considered guilty until proven innocent and good old DAL fired them. Over the course of a year or so, ALPA used all of its available resources to investigate the lab and found out the lab had some serious problems and was not following proper procedures for testing. DAL then conceded that the lab had problems and allowed the employees back to work. Without ALPA, what would have happened to these employees. Imagine the sacrifices made by any pilot to make it to the right seat of a 767 at a major and have that taken away because of a mistake by a lab and your company could care less about you, your family or your career. ALPA is necessary and I am thankful to have them on my side.