Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

WSK on Pilot Banter, Training Records, & Crew Rest / Commuting

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
I was more surprised that they went to idle power. Anytime I've acquired significant icing, my power settings are much greater just to keep normal airspeed for approach and landing or cruise for that matter.

It won't matter what the power was at, it won't matter what kind of ice it had, it won't matter what this guy lied about, it won't matter what other mistakes were made.

What will matter is that "ah ha" pilots commute from out of base, we the FAA on recommendation of the NTSB can fix that.

FAR Rule #1 effective in near future. Every airline pilot will now be required to live within 2 hours driving time of base; period.

There no more fatuge from commuting. Managment will love it, the NTSB will look good, the FAA looks good, and action is taken as a result of this accident.

Anyone want to trade a house in NJ for one in FL?
 
It won't matter what the power was at, it won't matter what kind of ice it had, it won't matter what this guy lied about, it won't matter what other mistakes were made.

What will matter is that "ah ha" pilots commute from out of base, we the FAA on recommendation of the NTSB can fix that.

FAR Rule #1 effective in near future. Every airline pilot will now be required to live within 2 hours driving time of base; period.

There no more fatuge from commuting. Managment will love it, the NTSB will look good, the FAA looks good, and action is taken as a result of this accident.

Anyone want to trade a house in NJ for one in FL?

Boy I agree.

One thing that I think is worth mentioning, is the fact that a large number of airlines don't do real training, they do checking. I'm not excusing difficiencies that might have taken place in this event. Howerver, in the name of the mighty bottom dollar, the only real training most of us get, is while we are newhires and during upgrades.

In most cases while going into PCs, we are expected to perform without any fresh training whatsover. Yes, most of us survive these events. Some of us may even like it. But do you really learn anything new? Are you trying to learn, or are you merely trying to survive? I would argue that the latter applies to a big percentage of us.

Accidents have decreased over the years. It's not because we now have super pilots. It's because automation has improved and CRM has become a way of life. I'd argue that this two factors alone are the biggest reasons why our safety record has improved. Most of our training however has not evolved. AQP should be mandatory for every 121 operator. If you can't afford it, tough! If that's the case, you don't deserve to be in business.

But as usual, the FEDs will clamp down on pilots. They may make it more difficult for us to commute. They may make checkrides even harder. But they won't stop companies from over stressing crews. Nor will they make companies properly staff their airlines. In other words, business as usual.
 
The sad truth of the these headlines is the public will never get to the the awful Pinnacle/Colgan safety culture.

If not for the pilots at these two places, safety would be non-existent.

The Pinnacle Detroit Base Manager has to be involved in this evil some way..........

:)
 
It won't matter what the power was at, it won't matter what kind of ice it had, it won't matter what this guy lied about, it won't matter what other mistakes were made.

What will matter is that "ah ha" pilots commute from out of base, we the FAA on recommendation of the NTSB can fix that.

FAR Rule #1 effective in near future. Every airline pilot will now be required to live within 2 hours driving time of base; period.

There no more fatuge from commuting. Managment will love it, the NTSB will look good, the FAA looks good, and action is taken as a result of this accident.

Anyone want to trade a house in NJ for one in FL?

"All Airline pilots shall..." Define Airline Pilot.
"All pilots operating under this part (121) shall live within so many miles of thier domicile blah blah blah. If you wanna see some real mass attrition, go for it FAA. I left the airlines specifically because I got sick of playing musical domiciles and the crappy commute that went with it.
 
It won't matter what the power was at, it won't matter what kind of ice it had, it won't matter what this guy lied about, it won't matter what other mistakes were made.

What will matter is that "ah ha" pilots commute from out of base, we the FAA on recommendation of the NTSB can fix that.

FAR Rule #1 effective in near future. Every airline pilot will now be required to live within 2 hours driving time of base; period.

There no more fatuge from commuting. Managment will love it, the NTSB will look good, the FAA looks good, and action is taken as a result of this accident.

Anyone want to trade a house in NJ for one in FL?

Even if that was the rule change how can they stop me from going on vacation with my travel benefits and coming back on a red eye the day before? This will never work, we can hop on a flight anytime and go anywhere we want and with that they can not make us stay home on our days off. I don't see how they can regulate it unless we don't have flight benefits anymore. I really don't think commuting is an issue here, what we need to push is higher training standards and higher flight time requirements to fly 121.
 
And the captain hauled the yoke to his chest...both actions vital in the recovery procedure for a tail stall.

I'm no accident investigator, but it sure seems to me in the heat of the moment they failed to maintain airspeed (basic airmanship problem, which highly experienced airman are not occasionally immune to) and then reacted properly to the wrong cause of their situation.

Well said

With that much ice buildup it sound like he assumed it was a tail stall. Through the actions he must have just recently watched the NASA video.
 
"All Airline pilots shall..." Define Airline Pilot.
"All pilots operating under this part (121) shall live within so many miles of thier domicile blah blah blah. If you wanna see some real mass attrition, go for it FAA. I left the airlines specifically because I got sick of playing musical domiciles and the crappy commute that went with it.
Being legal has nothing with being rested. There is no way to ensure a pilot is rested if he is not on a daytime schedule. Having flown scheduled night air cargo for Emery back in the 70's there is no a way pilot lives at home for 4 days with his family on a day time schedule and then takes 3 days of night flight from JKF to DEN and back, with 4 stops and is anything but completely exhausted by the end of the first night. . I was always tried with a messed up sleep pattern, but I was 100% legal as approved by the FAR’s and my ALPA contract. As I stated forced company rest on the premises in bunk 25B will make it legal but not solve the problem. Pilot are often their own worst enemies when it comes to being rested.
 
I was more surprised that they went to idle power. Anytime I've acquired significant icing, my power settings are much greater just to keep normal airspeed for approach and landing or cruise for that matter.

Hard to stay focused when you have a stiffy. No disrespect intended, but Renslow may have set an all time record for getting behind the aircraft.
 
And the captain hauled the yoke to his chest...both actions vital in the recovery procedure for a tail stall.

I'm no accident investigator, but it sure seems to me in the heat of the moment they failed to maintain airspeed (basic airmanship problem, which highly experienced airman are not occasionally immune to) and then reacted properly to the wrong cause of their situation.

"Heat of the moment!!" That is the tragedy. Experience can be measured in your ability to never put yourself in a situation where you have to use extaordinary airmanship. (obviously an aircraft failure can put you in an extraordinary situation but that is not what I am talking about) That crew put themselves in that situation and then didn't have the skill / experience to get out of it. It is sickening that company allowed and in fact promotes that with their hiring practices. I am sure they are not alone. The sad part is if Colgan suffers a non recoverable financial lost CO will just go looking for the next lowest bidder.
 
You guys really think Renslow had his "head in the game"?

If he was concerned about the ice, he would have talked about it. He would have briefed his plan for a stick shaker (wing stall) and tailplane stalls. He would have been hand flying. He would not have been jammering away about how much he liked flying in Houston compared to the Northeast.

He strikes me as inexperienced and complacent. His F/O was extremely inexperienced, tired and sick! She had a FDX commute in that morning.

Look for more over reaction, knee jerk regulations in our future.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top