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LearjetGA

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Posts
61
This is the question of the day.

You are flying a Learjet 35A under Part135. You have a trip going from the Boston area to the Turks and Caicos.
Trip length is 1400 miles, the only alternate is the Bermudas.
The rest is water. Time enroute is going to be 3 hours and 35 minutes. (endurance 5+ hours @ M .76) (Time enroute over mainland requires one stop and takes 6 hours)

One other problem is the RVSM and MNPS zone. Knowing that Mnps is going to start at 67 West and RVSM is in effect all over the Bermuda triangle until FL390. (thanks for the information, Falcon)

The only altitude is FL410 (who would like to explore the coffin corner at the service ceiling altitude of a fully loaded Lear over tons of water, anyway)

So, would YOU do it ?

If Yes, imagine, that you start at dusk, you have never been there, and you fly with 1 IFR GPS only (a second GPS is only VFR) and you com with a HF that you have never operated in that particular plane before.

Would YOU still do it.

I posted this actual problem to have any good advice, and to see how many people would do it.

LearjetGA
 
forgive me I dont remember 135 rules anymore...
but....
3+35 is fine in a Lear 35 if you ask me. I kept one in the air for 5 hrs before no prob...well...
Overwater ...so...whats the big deal?
did you check if you can make all your alternates in case of Depressurize? (10,000ft) (usually worst senario), engine failure?
Bermuda Triangle? what are you going to do, fly around it? call Ms Cleo before you go....whys this an issue?
HF you never used? try it on the ground or have it ops checked before you go or venture out too far...no big deal...dont you have to have TWO for 135???? forgive me if Im wrong..
Isn't the 35 certified for FL 450?? coffin corner? not a single thing wrong with flying at 450, save fuel, plus you will most likely be doing LRC anyways...maybe .78.....dont be afraid of the learjet at 450..just dont fall asleep for too long.

P.S. - I used to sometimes stop in Bermuda for fuel in a 35 from NY/Boston area if going far down in the carribean (Barbados) bermuda is an OK tech stop....quick in and out.
just an idea....might put you at ease...trip does not become longer and its usually a 25-30 min tech stop.

Does not sound impossible, I suggest using UNIVERSAL for flight planning, they take care of the legalities with alternates fuel reserves and such...we always run multiple plans to determine if a trip is possible beforehand.only way to go if you ask me.

BUT, the most IMPORTANT thing is how YOU feel, not me or your boss. You sound like you have talked yourself out of it already and are asking us if you are justified....of course you are. Thats all that matters. You are the PIC. Maybe you are new at it, is there a more experienced pilot in your company that can go with you??
Dont be a hero i say....dont give into pressure.
I have personally been given trips in the past I flat out turned down, told them they need a bigger plane. period. Just have all you reasons researched so you sound smart!

my motto always was.....nobody move nobody get hurt.

good luck
 
Lear Jet,

Its sad but true, that many in our profession either know someone or have themselves pushed the edge of the aircraft performance envelop and the personal performance envelop and embarked upon a risky trip under less than stellar circumstances for one reason or another. Most common reasons are pressing boss, either on the plane with you or back at base or nagging passengers that don’t want to hear it and you particularly don’t care to ever have to engage in conversation beyond the cabin safety brief.

Personally, I say screw’em both!

Why?

You’re in charge, you’re in the drivers seat, you’re the freaking pilot, end of story.

Because, if things go bad and your “lucky”, you’ll be having many long, one-sided conversations with men in dark colored suits in dimly lit rooms wanting nothing more than to violate you and your certificates into administrative oblivion. If your not so “lucky”, most likely we’ll all be discussing the “end results” on this and other boards as the US Navy and NTSB wait for the luggage to wash ashore.

By virtue of your post it is clear to me that you already know the answer, you’re just looking for some moral support, mutual reassurance.

Always play it safe, when in doubt don’t do it.

Sheik
 
Just be careful...
the "IM the pilot, its my license, I say NO" is NOT the answer you want to give...
Yes, you may very well know you ARE NOT doing a trip a certain way..
remember...

It can ALWAYS be done, may take 3X as much time and 10X as much money, but it can ALWAYS be done, and you, as thier highly qualified and expericenced pilot, know just how to do it.. Thats what they want to hear.

Do your research and give them all the possible scenarios (routes, diffrent a/c, etc..) with plenty of notice.
Stand your ground, be safe, but dont let your answer be "Im NOT going to do it, Im the CAPTAIN"
that kind of answer will get you nothing but replaced.
remember in this business we are dealing with ego maniacs and you are just a driver...just the facts!!!
 
LearjetGA:

Are YOU comfortable making this trip? You see it does not matter if I'm comfortable making the trip or if anyone on this board is comfortable making this trip. What matters is are you comfortable with it?

I'm just curious...What's the weather like?
 
I was under the impression that the RVSM started at FL310 and went up to 390. In my limited experience, we have always gone under the RVSM...ie FL290 or FL280. The 35 will still sip gas at those altitudes.

Have fun down there!

--Seabass
 
It has been years since I flew the 35, so forgive me. But I seem to remember that a max gross weight 35 won't make 450 until sometime around the 2.5 hour mark and it better be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** cold up there. On an standard day it might take 3 hours to get to 450.
The 35 is no rocket, like THEY want you to believe.
Beware of "coffin corner" it does exist and it needs to be respected. The margin between low and high speed buffet can be very small. Throw in a turn and some turbulence and you are going to be in for the ride of your life.
 
EOW

If you really want to know "PM" me and I will give you the name and number of the guy you need to talk to. He has written an extensive article in PP mag. about EOWP and has been making trips from the west coast to PHNL for over 15 years. He can answer all your questons. There are alot of people out there with lear experience, and there are the ones who know what a lear can do, and it is alot more than you think.
 
Risk management assessment

LearjetGA,

Purely from a risk management standpoint, there are simpy too many cards stacked against you in this deck. Make the stop... take the extra hour penalty... not a big deal!

From a logistical point of view, is this trip, (as it is described), even legal? I'm not sure if you will penetrate the airspace but if you do; not sure by your post but, are you operating with only one long range nav over RVSM/MNPS airspace? Even if you overfly the airspace, what if you have to descend into it for an unforseen circumstance? I.e., pressurization problem, loss of an engine, etc... If so, yill you be crossing the West bound Atlantic traffic at their "rush hour?" You will certainly have to turn West, primarily to parallel the Atlantic traffic and, secondarily to find a suitable landing site. How will you know where the tracks are? How will you parallel them? There are already too many things wrong here. Make the stop... take the extra hour penalty... not a big deal!
 

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