Union mindset

ATRCA

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
835
Total Time
tons
FDJ,

I have to put some spin on something you said earlier, to quote "I would blame myself for joining a union with unfair bylaws. "

I work for CoEx and can tell you that we were very aggressively courted by APLA, not the other way around. They solicited us because they needed our MEC votes to get CAL. Many will dissagree, but I think the facts will support my assertion.

Second, during the numerous crew room roadshows, ALPA never made mention of its representation heirarchy and most of us felt we would benefit from and recieve equal representation. I don't think anyone could review the facts and come to the conclusion that "regional" carriers recieve any where near the representation enjoyed by our larger brethren.

So your inference above that we "regional" pilots should have made a more educated decision about ALPA, I would instead contend that we were duped.

Now that I've stirred the pot a little let me say that I support my union and wear my pin proudly, however I think OUR union has to seriously consider how it is going to represent its members or there will be serious consequences. Time will tell.
 

9rj9

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
491
Total Time
5 til2
didn't Airtran pilots take a pay but

I think the AirTran pilots took a 20% pay cut to keep ALL pilots working.

United pilots voted down a pay cut. Its really unbelievable that pilots are so greedy, willing to make younger pilots suffer
Funny how the senior pilots hide behind the contract when junior guys lose their jobs. Instead they file grievence, thanks but kids still need to eat. Oh ya you're not a pilot until you've lost your job, bull*.
 

DaveGriffin

Registered Self-Abuser
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
569
Total Time
5 yrs
QUOTE]Originally posted by FlyDeltasJets
By the way, how much of a paycut did the SWA guys take? After all, you were criticizing us for not caring about our union brothers the way they do. I think you are right, and I would like to follow their lead. But I need to know how much of a cut to take. What was their's again? [/QUOTE]

FDJ;
It was Airtran, not Southwest (thank very much to 9rj9 for pointing this out). I’m sure you already knew this. The voluntary pilot pay cut was 22%.

Now you can ask the caring union brothers who are senior to you, and are still flying, to follow the Airtran lead and take a 22% pay cut. Fat chance of that. But I’m sure they are happy to pay for the Delta pilots’ furlough toll free hotline to keep you informed (by recorded message updated weekly) of ALPA's courageous and tireless battle to get back your job for you.

Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Business Roundtable
Thursday, October 11, 2001
LEONARD, CEO & Chairman AirTran Airways: Yeah, I was just going to say that one of the things I'm really proud of with our company is that in an industry where labor relations is notorious, that we reduced our flying by 20 percent obviously as all the other airlines did.
But in a one-day six-hour session with our pilots they agreed to reduce their compensation by 22 percent. And as a result, we didn't lay any pilots off which would give us an ability to grow more rapidly when things recover.
The next day we got the mechanics to reduce their pay by 20 percent. And, again, we didn't lay anybody off as a result. And that net, while we reduced capacity by 20 percent, we ended up with only 130 involuntary furloughs and no reductions in the two key skilled areas: Pilots and mechanics.
As far as I know, we're the only airline in the world that did -- was able to accomplish that. And I was at the White House meeting when we designed a bill that basically got passed, and I made that point to the Secretary of Transportation, and he asked every other airline CEO what they had accomplished. And the answer was virtually nothing by virtually every one of them.
So I think in that regard to your point, we certainly have a situation where people want to spend their career with our company, understand what it means to survive and take really brave action to -- on both the employees' part and the union leadership part to preserve jobs.
 

Draginass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
1,852
Total Time
5000+
How much was management's compensation reduced at AirTran and if it was, how do you know it was and by how much? Just because they say so? How do you know there's not hidden compensation?

Be VERY careful about giving up compensation. It doesn't come back except by force, and then many years later. Witness the B-fund disasters of the majors. Only if necessary for survival AND verified by outside experts (not company hacks), AND only for a specified period of time. You can bet that if US Air gives up compensation, it'll NEVER be back and it won't save any furloughees either. AirTran is being played like a fiddle.

Right now, most of the majors are under "force majuere" provisions. When do you think the companies will lift them? I'll bet NEVER, until they are forced to by lawsuits.
 

trainerjet

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Posts
507
Total Time
8000+
I believe that the AirTran pilot's pay was restored back in November. Whether or not is was "by force", I don't know. Maybe one of them could answer this question. I also believe that their pay was raised per their contract as of April 1. I am curious about one thing, Draginass. How is AirTran being "played like a fiddle"?
 

surplus1

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Posts
5,649
Total Time
25K+
ATRCA said:
FDJ,

I have to put some spin on something you said earlier, to quote "I would blame myself for joining a union with unfair bylaws. "

I work for CoEx and can tell you that we were very aggressively courted by APLA, not the other way around. They solicited us because they needed our MEC votes to get CAL. Many will dissagree, but I think the facts will support my assertion.

Second, during the numerous crew room roadshows, ALPA never made mention of its representation heirarchy and most of us felt we would benefit from and recieve equal representation. I don't think anyone could review the facts and come to the conclusion that "regional" carriers recieve any where near the representation enjoyed by our larger brethren.

So your inference above that we "regional" pilots should have made a more educated decision about ALPA, I would instead contend that we were duped.

Now that I've stirred the pot a little let me say that I support my union and wear my pin proudly, however I think OUR union has to seriously consider how it is going to represent its members or there will be serious consequences. Time will tell.
ATRCA,

Time has already told. It will get worse before it gets better. Particularly in your case, for which I'm sorry.

BTW, you're right about the sales pitch you got and the reason you got it or at least I'm convinced that you are. Neither one of us will ever be able to prove it though.

Interestingly, if you remember, during all your "road shows" in the crew rooms there were a lot of "people like you" brought in to help convince you. Strangely, there was NO representative from the 3 largest regionals in the union. No Eagle, no Comair no ASA. (The guy from Eagle was someone that had been dumped by his own). You finally got a couple of letters from the MEC Chairmen of CMR and EGL (letters that they were pressured and practically forced to write against their wishes).

You say you got "duped". Well I think you did but in fairness back when it was happening someone told you so over and over, but you would not listen. I used to read it on your forums.

Maybe you'll get out of the so-called single MEC before to long and join the ranks of those who not only call themselves your brothers, but who treat you like a brother.

Best wishes.
 

Draginass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
1,852
Total Time
5000+
If AirTran management restored pay, then kudos to them. That's sure not the norm, however.
 

DaveGriffin

Registered Self-Abuser
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
569
Total Time
5 yrs
How dare they!!

Draginass said:
How much was management's compensation reduced at AirTran and if it was, how do you know it was and by how much? Just because they say so? How do you know there's not hidden compensation?

Be VERY careful about giving up compensation. It doesn't come back except by force, and then many years later. Witness the B-fund disasters of the majors. Only if necessary for survival AND verified by outside experts (not company hacks), AND only for a specified period of time. You can bet that if US Air gives up compensation, it'll NEVER be back and it won't save any furloughees either. AirTran is being played like a fiddle.

Right now, most of the majors are under "force majuere" provisions. When do you think the companies will lift them? I'll bet NEVER, until they are forced to by lawsuits.
Right-on Draginass.
Where did these crazy, whacked-out Airtran pilots get the idea that working as a team to solve problems for the benefit the pilot group is ever going to work? Don’t the senior guys realize that giving up anything, especially for the benefit of the junior guys, is one of the dumbest things they could ever do? Those junior guys have to “feel the pain” of furloughs which then leads to deep-seated bitterness and distrust of everyone outside the pilot group. Without this painful, negative conditioning the juniors may mature into sensible, win-win solution seeking senior pilots.
 

publisher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
592
Total Time
20,000
Skeptical

couple of minor points.

the B scale was a solution to a very difficult business problem. When degregulation occured, new companies actually had a tremendous advantage over the older ones. People like Braniff in particular and many others started flying once protected routes at a fare extremely reduced from the day before.

The airlines did not really have a major incentive to keep labor or other costs in line as it was fairly easy to pass along these costs on protected routes.

When American came up with B scale, it saved them a tremendous amount of grief at the hands of cheap competition.

AirTran management and employees deserve tremendous credit for taking a positive approach when faced with a situation not of their making. That cohesive plan is an example of why they are growing.
 

FlyDeltasJets

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
664
Total Time
6000 +
Yes Dave,
I knew it was airtran. But when someone tells me "Them's the facts," sometimes I expect actual facts. Who knows why, I guess it's a character flaw of mine.

Secondly, airtran did take a paycut. I had no doubt they would.

I have had this discussion before, and I am pretty sick of it, so i will not be responding (hopefully!) to the responses it will get. I will, however, add my two cents on concessions and airlines like airtran.

#1. I do not want my union to give ANY concessions. We worked very hard to achieve a contract which will raise the bar for all pilots. Included in that contract is a no furlough clause, which I firmly believe the company is violating. You disagree. That's ok. We'll have to wait for the results of the grievance. But even if we lose, I do not want my union to give pay concessions. It is a slippery slope, one which is very difficult to climb back up. I would rather be furloughed than give up what we have earned. My father was Eastern and I used to be TWA. Both of those airline's pilots gave concession after concession, until they were about the lowest paid in the industry. Guess what? It didn't work. They rarely do.

I am, however, in favor of ALPA and the company meeting to work together to find ways to mitigate some furloughs. It would be nice if we were treated the same way the other employee groups were. That, however, would not be effective union-busting.

#2. While many of the pilots of airtran are fine professionals, and I mean no disrespect to them, I believe it is very dangerous for our profession when airlines are allowed to compete using lower employee salaries as a weapon. I'm sorry Dave, but I can't look to them with admiration for taking a paycut, when their entire contract is already a massive concession compared to ours.

I believe that we are raising the bar for the profession. Unfortunately, pilots who are willing to do the same job for half the pay gives management another weapon in their fight to lower the bar.

I know that many will disagree. I stand by for the inevitable responses about how we are overpaid, how the market is changing, how we won't be able to compete, etc. You are all entitled to your opinions, it just chagrins me at times to hear fellow pilots use arguments traditionaly heard only from management.

I believe that we do a difficult job, and should be well-compensated for it. I believe the pay, workrules, lifestyle, and respect of an airline pilot has suffered greatly over the last 20 years. I believe that airlines should compete using everythig at their disposal, but we as pilots should not allow them to compete using our salaries as weapons.

Feel free to disagree all you want, but I intend to continue fighting for better pay and lifestyles for all pilots. I am not stupid. I understand airline economics, and recognize that low-fare airlines are a threat. Perhaps soon we may be forced to lower our pay just to survive. If and when that time comes, we will step up to the plate, as we have done before. That time has not yet arrived, and until it does, we will not be volunteering to give away our hard earned money. I'd rather it go to my family than Leo's.

I know this post may produce an outcry against me. Just once I would like to see people criticize factors which lead to lower pilot salaries, not those who are fighting for higher ones. This is, after all, a pilot's board, isn't it?
 

73GDog

Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2002
Posts
17
Total Time
5,500
Excellent post FlyDeltasJets! As one of the potential 1,400 to be furloughed, I too had rather be furloughed than give concessions. I am quite used to the confrontation from management however, hearing other pilots' talk of degrading the profession is truly a shame. Can someone please explain to this engineer, with no business experience why TWA continued to lose money in the mid to late 90's while the other majors were making billions and TWA pilots' made roughly 60% of the pay their counterparts made at the profitable carriers. Please enlighten me.
 

Draginass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
1,852
Total Time
5000+
Correct DeltaJets. I think most of our furloughees at AAL feel the same way about willy-nilly acquiesing to management's whimpering about pilot salaries. They want a job that's worth coming back too. And besides, I don't believe it really prevents furloughes anyway. Dave doesn't have a clue. Maybe another major airline pilot neverbee that thinks he knows it all.
 
Top