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avbug

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Interesting thought, from the latest Aviation Week...n two incidents since 1998 -- involving a Delta
MD-88 and an AirTran DC-9 -- pilots and flight
attendants debated whether to use Halon fire
extinguishers on areas where smoke was coming
from because, unsure of each fire's seriousness,
they feared the chemical would do more harm
than good. In a third, in 2000, an above-ceiling fire
was rapidly blistering ceiling panels in an
American MD-82's main cabin. The fire was put
out only after a passenger pulled a knife from his
carry-on bag and cut a hole in the panels, giving
an extinguisher-toting flight attendant a clear shot
at the flames. Each incident ended with safe
emergency landings and evacuations, with only a
few minor injuries reported....Current security regulations banning knives and
other sharp instruments mean the odds of finding
a tool to cut one's way to an in-flight fire are not
good.
 

aero99

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aren't crash axes still in the cockpit?
 

AWACoff

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I wonder what would have happened to that crew that evacuated for "smoke" when it only vapor from the air conditioning....could you imagine chopping up the cockpit with the crash axe....DOH!
 

avbug

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Can you imagine NOT ventilating when it IS a fire?
 

TurboS7

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Crash axe has to stay on the flight deck to take care of the terrorist that lit the fire as a diversion. If the crew runs for the crash axe the terrorist gets access to the flight deck at the perfect moment. Could be happening at this moment....how is my thinking avbug....on the right track.;)
 

avbug

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Yes, or so the germans would have us believe!

How soon we forget the bear. Perhaps that's for the best, because if the public got wind of it (how can one not, around a bear??), it would take the surprise (not to mention the fun) right out of it.

I have long been a proponent of placing bears on board domestic airliners (overseas flag operations are a risk; the former USSR alternately worships them or makes rugs of them, the europeans are afraid of them, and everywhere else they eat them, except australia, where most commonly they're mistaken for koalas with thyroid problems).

Bears are the perfect soloutions. It's an established fact, yet not one airline has made a move to include them on the flight deck, the forward lav, or the first class section (where they sit among passengers and are disguised with a moustache and newspaper).

I support arming crews with squirter bottles filled with fish guts and chicken grease. Spray the attackers, watch the bears eat.

Why waste a good crash axe?
 

TurboS7

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Light the bear grease that stuff really burns, you can get one of those plastic lighters through security no problem. I am out the door for another adventure in the aviation world, Keflivik, have fun and enjoy life.
 

ifly4food

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avbug said:
...Current security regulations banning knives and other sharp instruments mean the odds of finding a tool to cut one's way to an in-flight fire are not good.
Avbug, correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been ranting for a month that security needs to be tighter? Now you're decrying the removal of our knives? Which is it? :confused:
 

avbug

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You keep mentioning "ranting,", but I haven't been on any emotional rage of late.

The comments to which you refer in quotes are a direct quote removed from the latest electronic mailing of Aviation Week and Space Technology. Take it for what it's worth, and take your issue up with them, not with me. I found the comment interesting.

If you don't care for my comments, then skip them. Go elsewhere. Read someone else's comments. Don't be burdened by a thing I have to offer. In this particular case, don't shoot the messenger; the post simply passed along info sent out into the public domain, which appeared to be of some interest.

If I "rant," you'll know.
 

enigma

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Reality Check

avbug said:


If I "rant," you'll know.
Reality chech, my friend. Your average post seems to be over three paragraphs long. Sometimes you you write a daily assignment, sometimes you write a term paper.

You must understand, that in todays ten second sound bite society, anything longer than two lines is a rant.

I guess that you are blessed with the ability to think coherantly and type fast at the same time. I respect that ability, largely because I can't seem to do it myself.

Keep on doing what you do. I sometimes can't see things from your point of view, but I enjoy reading your work.

regards
 

Simon Says

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I dont know about bears in the flightdeck, but didnt United (or was it America West) have a pig in First Class. The whole story was that it was a service animal, but I think it was a new security measure. Pig feacis is a very deadly weapon. Not only that but it can be used to block access to the flightdeck and alert flightcrew members of suspicious activity by Oinking very loudly.
 

StaySeated

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Attackers as inflight meals...

I like this idea, fish/chicken grease followed by hungry bear...one problem I see is with the fact that most airlines are cutting back on inflight meal service. Considering the fact that the flying public is scary dumb, once the bear begins to eat, they may follow suit. Now we have a hungry bear and many hungry dumb dumbs chowing on the attacker. I can see the complaints to management already...

I was enjoying the inflight service, very unique. All of a sudden a large hairy passenger ate my meal. I should therefor fly for free, forever. And send me some of the fish/chicken stuff, it was delicous.
 

AWACoff

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Last time I checked, water vapor didn't smell anything like smoke.
 

ifly4food

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avbug said:
The comments to which you refer in quotes are a direct quote removed from the latest electronic mailing of Aviation Week and Space Technology. Take it for what it's worth, and take your issue up with them, not with me. I found the comment interesting.
Pardon my mistake. Since you didn't use quotation marks or cite which part of your post was a direct quote, I assumed it to be of your own words. I thought you were making a commentary on the ASW article.

If you don't care for my comments, then skip them. Go elsewhere. Read someone else's comments. Don't be burdened by a thing I have to offer. In this particular case, don't shoot the messenger; the post simply passed along info sent out into the public domain, which appeared to be of some interest.
Not at all. I do care for your comments.
You keep telling people who disagree with you to ignore you or go away. I like to debate, and I thought you did too. If your goal is to simply lecture and not have it open to discussion, that's your right, but I thought you liked to discuss things.
 

avbug

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Friend,

I'm certainly open to a discussion of the facts, but don't care to discuss slights, such as "rants", and what I do or don't believe. Concerning this thread, rather than attack my personal crediibility or consistancy of opionion, why not simply address the issue of fires on board the aircraft.

I made no observation concerning the viability or practicality of knives or edged weapons, or any other sharp implement on board an aircraft. I typically wear five blades in the form of a swiss army knife, a utility tool, and sometimes a small 2" clipit utility blade. I've carried them through security for years without impunity, and have remarked on many occasions that this is a big failing in security. I've always been told that this is ridiculous; that no one would ever attempt something using such a small blade (the most effective blade length for offensive or defensive use in close quarters is an average 3").

However, the article in aviation week concerned on board fires, I clipped and pasted a portion which made commentary on passenger assistance in fighting a fire, and specifically identified a case in which a passenger used a personal implement to open paneling in order to inject firefighting agent.

Owing to the present situation, I certainly do not believe that the carriage of any sort of implement by passengers is a wise idea.

With respect to this thread, I believe a better soloution would be the use of velcroed or quick remove-panels which allow access to spaces likely to contain a fire. Many business aircraft and personal aircraft utilize such systems. For heavier panels, the use of camlocks or dzus type fasteners, or butterfly dzus fasteners, would ensure the ability to remove a panel quickly for access. For those areas the use of lightweight conduit would prevent or discourage discreet passenger attacks on wiring harnesses or bundles.

An alternate soloution is the inclusion of small access panels spaced at regular intervals to act as pop-out portals to discharge an extinguisher into. In such cases the use of a small removable access panel would allow agents such as Halon to work much more effectively in immediately combating the fire. The inclusion of small plugs in each panel which are head sensitive would show the location closest to the heat source, for making the most efficient use of hand units on the source of the fire.

The issue of knives on passengers for the purpose of egress of firefighting/rescue only serves to demonstrate that the issue is far more complex than box cutters and guys with beards.
 
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