this goes on, I guess

utahpilot

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ok, I KNOW this is wack, but it happened.

4 pilots, all ME rated take a twin out for a flight. one MEI right seat, one MEI in the back. the other two ME rated pilots take turns flying on a 3 hour flight. all FOUR log ME time as PIC!! now, I know this is messed up. the two in the back, whether they're discussing ME stuff or not, are certainly passengers, right? I've heard of other people having an MEI in the back and two Comm/ME rated pilots in the front, one under the hood and all 3 logging the PIC time. can't do it, right?
 

ksu_aviator

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You can't log time from the back....but the FAA has tried to violate people sitting in the back. I know I heard of a King Air crew that violated some reg (I can't remember the whole story) but the instructor that was just chillen in the back was violated...Now I'm pretty sure he/she got out of it but hey in my book we should be able to log time sitting in the back if we can be violated for it. But the true answer is no...don't log time in the back seat.
 

avbug

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Wack??

There are certain circumstances under which all four could log flight time, however, there are no circumtances under which all could log pilot in command time.

If a view limiting device is used for one pilot at the flight station controls, then he or she, if rated in the airplane and acting as sole manipulator, may log PIC for the time acting as sole manipulator. See FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i).

If the other pilot at the controls (assuming a light twin, from your description) is acting as safety pilot, and also as Plot-in-Command, that pilot may log PIC time for the time spent acting as PIC of an aircraft for which which more than one crewmember is required, by the regulation under which the flight is operated. See FAR 61.51(e)(1)(iii) and 91.109(b)(1).

A flight instructor, acting as an authorized flight instructor, may log PIC for all time spent acting as an authorized instructor, as given under 61.51(e)(3). Undoubtably this would provide justification for adding a third pilot, in the "back seat," who is logging PIC time. Circumstances to exist in which a flight instructor conducts instruction from other than a pilot station

FAR 61.1(b)(2)(ii) defines "Authorized Instructor" as a person who holds a current flight instructor certificate issued under Part 61 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordancee with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate.

61.195(g) requires that an aircraft used for training have two pilot positions, with one exception, and that exception still requires training in a like aircraft with two pilot stations. This paragraph also requires conformance with FAR 91.109, which makes a similiar provision. Nowhere does it state that the flight instructor must occupy the second flight station, but the implication is clearly spelled out in the title of the paragraph for 61.195(g), which reads, "Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training."

The guiding principle is that the flight instructor must determine that the flight may be conducted safely. A number of schools do provide instruction in this manner. However, you can bet that in the event of an accident or incident, both the FAA, the insurance, and the courts are going to look very closely at the rationale behind this arrangement in the cockpit. Adequate justification will have to be made for initially placing the authorized intructor in a position where he or she cannot effect recovery or correction with the flight controls, and in the event of an accident or incident, the flight instructor will come under heavy scrutiny for failure to prevent that occurance from happening.

There is no provision for the fourth pilot to log PIC time.

In the scenario you describe, if the right seat is occupied by a flight instructor (holding a multi engine rating on his or her flight instructor certificate), and that instructor is acting as an authorized instructor, there is no provision to allow the instructor in the back seat to log any of the time as pilot in command, or second in command.

If two pilots are switching back and forth and acting as sole manipulator of the controls during the course of the flight, then they may log pilot in command only for the time spent acting as sole manipulator of the controls.

The one other possible exception is that the instructor in the right seat is acting as an authorized instructor, and as safety pilot. The instructor in the back seat agrees to act as pilot-in-command. In this scenario, the "student" under the view limiting device logs time as PIC as sole manipulator, the instructor in the right seat logs PIC as an authorized instructor, and the instructor in the back seat logs PIC as the acting PIC of an aircraft requiring more than one crew member under 91.109(b)(1).

However, in this scenario, only two crewmembers are required, and the FAA will question the validity of the third pilot acting as PIC. Changing the scenario slightly, if the fourth pilot acts as PIC for the flight, and the second instructor in the back seat is providing instruction on giving instruction, to the instructor in the front seat, the four dingbats in the geronimo have their justifiction, albeit misguided. In this case, one would suggest that the pilot under the view limiting device is logging PIC as sole manipulator, the front seat instructor is logging time as PIC as an authorized instructor, the rear seat instructor is logging PIC an an authorized instructor while providing instruction to the front seat instructor, and the rear seat non-instructor is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft requiring more than one flight crewmember, and therefore also logging PIC.

This doesn't wash.

For the reasons previously mentioned, the validity of a pilot acting as PIC, while riding in the back seat of an aircraft certificated for one pilot, will be questioned. Likewise, the validity of an instructor acting as an authorized instructor but not occupying a flight station (while legitimate in certain cases) will come under scrutiny. Certainly if any of this logged time is to be used toward any certificate, rating, or to meet recency of experience requirements. Further, the validity of one instructor providing instruction to another instructor, who is already an authorized instructor, is questionable.

Note also that no one but the manipulator of the controls may log the landings, or approaches. All pilots who are logging time (under applicable regulations) may log the conditions of flight, such as night, instrument, etc.

Hope that helps.
 

FlyinBrian

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To anyone who has ever logged time from the back seat:
Your time is totally bogus regardless of any legal rationale you may have for logging it. Instructors cannot adequately perform their duties from the back seat. The time earns you very little meaningful experience. It's like logging PIC as a jumpseater. (i.e. TOTALLY ridiculous) If I'm ever doing interviews at an airline, and I come across a pilot who has logged time in this manner, I will not hire them period. Who wants pilots working for their airline who seek to bend, break, or creatively interpret rules to benefit themselves with no regard for safety, honesty, or integrity of the profession?

I'll step off the soap box now, but this stuff irritates me.
 

bobbysamd

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Logging "time"

As always, I enjoy Avbug's well-written and well-documented comments, but I have to second Brian.

Everyone is desperate for multi time. I was. I'm sure Brian was, others are. Multi time does not grow on trees and there are no shortcuts to building it. Go build the time the way it was meant to be built, by flying. Find a job where you're actually flying the plane or actually instructing from the right or left seat. Others have done it; you can do it, too.
 

avbug

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Bobby,

I'm in complete agreement with both you, and Brian. Attepting to log time from the "back seat" is a bit of a stretch, and if nothing else, gives the appearance of inpropriety. It doesn't pass the "smell test."

There are legitimate occasions for logging this time, however. When doing annual training in the C-130, for example, we would often go aloft with the designated PIC as an instructor pilot, who stood on the flight deck while those being checked and "educated" performed their duties. That individual was, by no uncertain account, the pilot in command. He didn't occupy a pilot seat, however. I have no idea how he logged his time; I suspect that he didn't log his time at all as many folks in that business didn't keep logs except for currency (and some not even then), but he was entitled to log the time as PIC.

Likewise, the captain on a 121 flight, designated PIC by the certificate holder, remains PIC for the duration of the flight. If he gets up for a psyiological break, and is no longer at the flight station or manipulating the controls, he still retains the position of PIC, and may log the time.

Another example is a flight test, as specified under 61.47(b)(2). This paragraph states that the examiner on a practical test is not the PIC unless designated as such by the applicant, or by a person who would otherwise act as PIC during the course of the flight. Under certain circumstances, the examiner may occupy the second flight station while the designated PIC rides along, behind the examiner, and in such a case, the second person, the acting PIC, may authoritatively log the time as PIC.

Ultimately, however, unless an instructor writes in his logbook, "instruction given while out of my seatbelt leaning over the student's shoulder from the back seat of the airplane...", there is really no way that anyone would know where the instructor was during the flight. In other words, one can't bounce someone from the interview because they instructed from other than a pilot station, if the instructor doesn't provide an indication of it.

My previous post was intended only to examine the legal aspects of such a scenario, and only touched briefly on the ethics. I agree that in most cases, instructing or logging of time from other than the pilot station is inappropriate. I would state, however, that this is not a universal statement. There are scenarios in which it is appropriate, and acceptable.
 

bobbysamd

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Logging time v. Building time

No, I think any disagreement there may be, if any, is over the purpose of logging the time. That purpose, of course, is to meet time requirements for jobs.

I've heard of the scenarios which Avbug references. These are specialized cases which would not involve gaining experience. I've heard of Navy P-3 ACs who log all of their time as PIC, but may spend part of that time resting and not even near the airplane's controls.

We are talking about building multi time for conventional, advanced pilot positions. These jobs require honest-to-goodness, at-the-controls, flight time. That time must be earned the old-fashioned way, at the controls. That's time pilot recruiters expect to see and assume on a resume or app, even though other ways of logging time may follow the letter of the law.

To quote Ringo Starr, "you got to pay your dues if you want to sing the blues, and it don't come easy." :)
 
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Cornelius

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The only time 4 people can log anything at the same time would be in the B-52 for example. 1 captain, 1 co-pilot, 1 FE, and 1 navigator in the old days. Brian is absolutely correct and anybody who logs time from the back is on crack.
 

avbug

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Cornelius,

There are many occasions when a number of people on board an aircraft may log time. The specific question involved multiple people logging PIC time, and there are specific cases where this is appropriate. There are many others where it is not.

Look closely at the regulation covering long haul operations, and the methodology of logging time on those flights. I'd like to see some comments from some long haul crews here (TurboS7??) about their logging practices.

You might be surprised.
 

Cornelius

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Avbug,

This may be something new to me. Tell me where the long haul regs are and I'll look them up. Are they 121, FLIP, or ops specs?

My personal feelings are if you're in the back seat and you have no designated duty then you are a passenger. If you are a required crewmember with a responsibility, then you can log time.

Cruise brothers aka bunk buddies are usually 2nd officers and I'm guessing they log time as SIC on those long lonely international flights. If someone out there is a secondary crew member then let us in on how you log the time.

About multiple people logging PIC time, let me know in a short brief reply.
 

avbug

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With respect to your last question, it was already examined in depth, above.
 

starchkr

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A little twist to the above...

Isn't it possible for a type rated person to log PIC anytime they are in that type of plane, no matter where they are sitting. Whether in the cockpit or even just flying on vacation in the back?
 

Cornelius

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The point of this whole thread is that utahpilot wanted to talk how crazy this would be if it really happened. I have heard of people logging time in the back seat and it is absurd. My God, are we that desperate for time. When would a situation like that ever occur during GA flight training? Like many of us believe, if we were involved in an accident or the FAA were to question our role/responsibility on a flight, can we justify our actions/duties? Even I think sitting as safety pilot and logging PIC time is a bit of a stretch.
 

skydiverdriver

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It may not pass the "smell" test, but this is legal. I have a letter from the FAA that says it is. I'm not sure where the idea came from that you have to sit in a certain seat to log a certain kind of time, but it isn't true. The guy in the back is legitimate, and you can even log PIC time from the jumpseat in 121 ops.
 

skydiverdriver

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Brian

Take a look at 121.434, c1ii, "in the case of a transitioning pilot in command the check pilot serving as pilot in command may occupy the observers seat."

I dont' think the guy who wrote that was on crack. You will understand things a bit better when you have worked for an airline longer, as things might not be the way you were taught in flight school.

Good luck to all of you.
 

utahpilot

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all I was saying was that I've seen this go on among CFI's who are looking to build their multi time. 4 ME rated pilots, two are MEIs. the two non-MEIs take turns flying in the left seat while the one MEI is in the front, the other in the back, each saying that they are giving dual in the light twin. all four log PIC for the entire flight.

seems to me, the MEI up front can log it all, the ME rated pilot in the right seat can log the time he is flying ONLY, and the dude in the back is, in fact, on crack to think he has anything to do with the flight or logging the time, even if he discusses ME procedures in the back with the other joker.

anyway, thanks for the responses
 

utahpilot

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sorry, I mean the "ME rated pilot in the left seat can log ONLY the time he is flying" (not the time he is sitting in the back watching and discussing the flight with the other loser MEI
 

ksu_aviator

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I'm putting an end to this discussion

I don't normally copy and paste the FAR's but this time I feel I have to. The situation the original post describe was a Part 91 flight in a Single Pilot, Multi-engine aircraft with 4 "Pilots" logging PIC time. Therefore, Part 61.51 says:

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

If you read this properly, the PIC in this case is the one manipulating the controls. The MEI can not log PIC time unless he/she was flying or the Left seater was under the hood, because the airplane only requires one pilot. From there, nobody in the back can log any time. They are not required crew. The only required crew was the left seat pilot and then only one other pilot is required if that left seat pilot was under the hood.

Get over the idea that you can log part 91 PIC time from the back seat. It just isn't legal. I don't care how many FAA forms or legal reviews you claim to have, its not legal.
 

utahpilot

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don't have the FARs right here, but I'm pretty sure the MEI can log all the time since he is a qualified instructor giving dual, right?
 
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