The end of Comair

Bugsmasher Plus

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Enuff
We're you high enough up the food chain to see the constant abuse? No...wait...you were high enough up the food chain to ignore the constant abuse we put up with. You made a comment about the "culture". I notice you had no response when I pointed out the verbal abuse I got from Mikey P. Some "cult"ure.:puke:
I ignored it because he wasn't DO before the strike as you said he was, CB was. MP didn't become DO until well after the strike at the beginning of 2002. Until this post I didn't see a reason to correct you.

Your MEC used delay tactics to force the strike. Not showing up for negotiations, 3 hour caucus to clarify a 5 word sentence etc. It's why the negotiating team went from 3 to 2 on the company side. The union lied to the rank and file. It could have been done quickly. Your MEC chose otherwise. The fact is that 70 seat airplanes were on the table and your MEC chose not to chase them in 2003 is proof of that. And for the record, I am specific on JC and Cory, not the rank and file pilots which I think were the greatest group of pilots that I've ever worked with. Period.
 

Bugsmasher Plus

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Yeah, if only all those stupid pilots would work for food stamp wages and not just some of them, imagine what we could accomplish! Do you realize how much of a tool you are showing yourself to be?
I never said or implied that.

JC and Cory could have negotiated to industry standards at that time like all the others did and the strike wouldn't have happened.

The hubs would have remained protected and Comair would have continued to grow at the incredible pace it was growing. We were on the leading edge of the 70 seat aircraft, why would you want to stop that kind of growth?

Maybe JC and Cory can answer that. It never made any sense to me.
 

imacdog

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Yeah those whole extra few bucks an hour (raising the bar to barely liveable wages from dirt poor) really was reaching for the moon, wasn't it? People flying multi-million dollar equipment making 35K, and that's too much, what a joke.
 

eightdriver

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Agree on the Comair part. This is BS treatment by Delta.

Per the Obama comment, you clearly are a F*&^Tard.[/QUOTE]



First - as I mentioned earlier, sincere condolences to the Comair folks out there. Terrible situation and I hope you find better jobs soon.

Profit - Really? You're a big talker who can't support your statement. Where are your facts? Can you support your statement? It's easy to talk big and sound real cool - but you need to support it with facts or you sound like another tool...

You want some facts? How about these facts:

1. Worst economy in the US since the great Depression - for the last 3.5 years with zero improvement
2. 8.2% official unemployment rate but a real unemployment rate exceeding 18% including those chronically unemployed who have dropped out and those who are under-employed (part-time jobs)
3. 50+% of recent college grads unemployed
4. By November 2012, the unemployment rate for Black people could easily be close to 21-22% according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
5. $5 trillion in NEW debt since Obama entered office
6. The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $3.90 billion per day since September 28, 2007.
7. $800 Billion in stimulus with no improvement in the unemployment rate - it is only growing
8. The average Canadian is now wealthier than the average American
9. Americans on average have lost 45% of their wealth in the last 3.5 years
10. Foreclosures continue to happen at the highest rate in history
11. Gas prices are 81% higher in the Obama Administration than they were in the Clinton Administration
12. 49.5% of Americans paid no federal income tax in 2009 - that's 151.7 million people
13. Obamacare will add 26 new taxes for large and small businesses
14. Although oil drilling is stastically up in the US since Obama entered office, 98% of that new drilling happens on private land (i.e., in North Dakota) where the Federal Government has no say in the matter. Obama has a failed energy policy
15. The Keystone pipeline project would have created 25,000 US jobs before Obama stopped it. Now the Chinese have agreed to buy a huge Canadian oil company (this week) - China will get more oil/gas while US fuel prices increase
16. Increasing taxes for the top 1% like Obama wants, will provide enough tax money to fund the US government for a total of 7 days


Should I continue? Had Obama focused hard on the economy in 2008-9 as the top priority, perhaps things would be different. If Obama had agreed with and implemented the Simpson-Bowles Plan (since he actually commissioned the study) instead of ignoring the recommendations, perhaps things would be different. If Obama were a CEO, he would have been fired for non-performance. But he couldn't become a CEO because he has ZERO business experience and he does not understand economics. So, can we really afford 4 more years with Obama? How much more will our debt grow in the next 4 years? The economy MUST be the top priority and Obama clearly does not understand that point...

So, Profit and 727C47, where are your facts that Obama has grown and improved our economy after 3.5 years??? Show me the facts. I'm waiting....

This picture says it all:


FOX news....... Your the f@#$ing idiot.... Get a clue
 

nightfr8er

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Unbelievable? BS.

I was sitting about 10 feet from Cory when he gave his famous "on behalf of all the aviation professionals at Comair" speech at the company meeting when Seibs put him back in his place. I, like most of the group in the room was insulted as he sure as hell wasn't speaking for me.

Now THAT was unbelievable.

They had an agenda, and that agenda was to squeeze every penny out of a very well run airline and to establish a new pay scale within the regional industry. They failed to do that, the strike didn't have to happen and the company was never the same. Comair today should be stronger than any regional out there. Comair was the best managed airline in those years and had a company culture second to none.

I meant exactly what I said and I know I'm not the only one that feels the way I do.

Lorenzo will forever be identified with Eastern and JC and Cory should forever be identified as responsible for the demise of Comair.

But to say that the downfall of the company is on the shoulders of JC and Cory is BS! They didn't put the group on strike - over 99 % voted for it and walked out together. And for others to suggest that the pilots and the union brought down the company when management wanted to "adjust the cost structure to be competitive" is even more BS!

When Fred Buttrell came in in '04 and said "If you take a 2 year pay freeze, then every other pilot group's pay rates will catch up with yours, and I can then secure financing for another 36 airplanes in 36 months, our costs will then be competitive", and then Delta turns around and files bankruptcy 6 months later - that had nothing to do with the pilots not playing ball to help the company. They then threw out our contract, inmposed 10% to 22% pay cuts on the pilots, depending on seat, and gave us a contract with 1% raises for the next 4 or 5 years. And the STILL came to the pilots every two years or so afterwards, saying "You need to take pay cuts, our costs aren't competitive." That is poor management from ATL - NOT the fault of the pilots.

Then DL keeps reducing the fee for departure, because Comair was the only remaining Connection Carrier without a FRP contract and couldn't do anything about it, and then they begin furloughing, cutting off the cheapest labor, and artificially raising the $/hr cost structure, because then all the captains are the most senior, and the FO's are the most senior, they continued to make their own cost structure problem worse. They did it to themselves, over and over again.

So don't you uninformed haters out there blame the downfall of the company on the pilots that refused to keep doing it for cheaper. Blame it on ALPA for not making the Connectioin Carrier task force, or whatever the he!! they called it sooner, to prevent the whipsawing that took place of one group over another. Blame it on the ATL suits that fed fees to other companies that also fed their competition (like when Republic gave USAir $120 million to keep operating) instead of keeping all of the money in house. Blame it on other pilot groups for not getting better pay rates on continuing to advance the profession - but there's only so much that other groups can do too.

The long and short of it is that DL management had it in for Comair ever since the strike. During the deposition phase for the RJDC lawsuit, I was told that they got a DL manager under oath to state for the record that Gerry Grinstein, then CEO of Delta, deliberately made decisions to punish Comair for that, as long as he was the CEO.
 

doh

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I ignored it because he wasn't DO before the strike as you said he was, CB was. MP didn't become DO until well after the strike at the beginning of 2002. Until this post I didn't see a reason to correct you.

Your MEC used delay tactics to force the strike. Not showing up for negotiations, 3 hour caucus to clarify a 5 word sentence etc. It's why the negotiating team went from 3 to 2 on the company side. The union lied to the rank and file. It could have been done quickly. Your MEC chose otherwise. The fact is that 70 seat airplanes were on the table and your MEC chose not to chase them in 2003 is proof of that. And for the record, I am specific on JC and Cory, not the rank and file pilots which I think were the greatest group of pilots that I've ever worked with. Period.

You're right, he had some other management position at the time. But what he said to me in the van as a total stranger still stands. And that attitude was pervasive. Remember the MCO ground manager. He had dark hair and a mustache. I don't remember his name because he refused to talk to me. My first day in MCO I walked up to him to introduce myself. He would not even say "hi". He turned his back on me and walked away. You get one chance to make an impression and that was the impression management chose to make as individuals over and over.
 

ms6073

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Perhaps if airline management, since the beginning of time, didn't foster a culture of abuse towards its employees, we wouldn't need contracts or unions.
Now come on, thats just plain crazy talk. :nuts:
 

pilotyip

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Now come on, thats just plain crazy talk. :nuts:
Again how come all the guys with all the answers on how to fix management, don't come over to the dark side and bring in the light?

CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. Now I will agree that CEO leadership in many cases leaves much to be desired. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it.

The pressure to maintain profit in the face of a consumer who changes flights for $1 in difference cost. There must be profit for without profit a company has no access to capital; without capital there is no growth, no more jobs. Profitable companies, sell stock to raise equity, a preferred method of raising money as opposed to borrowing. Profit can be used to pay dividends, which may raise the price of the stock, giving the company even more capital.

Without profit the only source of operating revenue is debt, and we know what that does eventually.
 

PCL_128

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Again how come all the guys with all the answers on how to fix management, don't come over to the dark side and bring in the light?
Because all of us have been in this business long enough to have friends who have tried exactly that, only to find that it's impossible, because the senior managers aren't interested in some pilot bringing new ideas. You're just there to do whatever the top dogs want, not to try to actually fix problems. No thanks. Not interested.
 

pilotyip

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Because all of us have been in this business long enough to have friends who have tried exactly that, only to find that it's impossible, because the senior managers aren't interested in some pilot bringing new ideas. You're just there to do whatever the top dogs want, not to try to actually fix problems. No thanks. Not interested.
Yes but all of the pilots could get together, pool their money, and start a perfect airline. Now you might have to hire someone with experience outside the cockpit that would respected by Wall Street and the Bankers, but the pilots could run the airline through this person by being on the board of directors.

Or another option is the pilots start buying all the voting stock of an airline get a sizable portion and then elect pilots to the board that would work to convert the airline to the perfect airline.
 

CarjCapt

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Yes but all of the pilots could get together, pool their money, and start a perfect airline. Now you might have to hire someone with experience outside the cockpit that would respected by Wall Street and the Bankers, but the pilots could run the airline through this person by being on the board of directors.

Or another option is the pilots start buying all the voting stock of an airline get a sizable portion and then elect pilots to the board that would work to convert the airline to the perfect airline.
That has been tried. I believe some Pan Am pilots bought what was the Easter Shuttle and it failed.

Am I wrong.
 

777forever

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Yes but all of the pilots could get together, pool their money, and start a perfect airline. Now you might have to hire someone with experience outside the cockpit that would respected by Wall Street and the Bankers, but the pilots could run the airline through this person by being on the board of directors.

Or another option is the pilots start buying all the voting stock of an airline get a sizable portion and then elect pilots to the board that would work to convert the airline to the perfect airline.
Any airline run by pilots is doomed to fail

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
 

makersmarc

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Any airline run by pilots is doomed to fail

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
Hell, any restaurant run by pilots is doomed to fail.



Sent from my backyard using semaphoric smoke signals
 

SLUF4

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That has been tried. I believe some Pan Am pilots bought what was the Easter Shuttle and it failed.

Am I wrong.
Remember Kiwi? How long did they last? That was a bunch of ex Eastern pilots.
 

CarjCapt

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Remember Kiwi? How long did they last? That was a bunch of ex Eastern pilots.
You are right I was wrong. As I now remember, thank you, their claim to fame was the leather jackets.
 

pilotyip

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Wasn't UAL at one time represented on the BOD by the pilots?
 
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