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enigma

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This is probably old news that I missed the first time around. Not to start any flame wars, but I heard on the radio yesterday that the fifteen year old that flew his Cessna into the building in TPA was actually half arab. This was broadcast on a national talk radio program, it was not a show that I hear infrequently and I'm not sure of the hosts name although I think it was Michael Medved, or it may have been Mike Gallagher. I'm not sure.
The host stated that Bishop was born with the surname, Basuropp (sounded that way, I didn't hear him spell it). His mother changed their name during the Gulf War because she was afraid of an anti-Arab backlash. the mother is apparently caucasian/American and the father was Arabic. The father left the family when the boy was young.

Has anyone else heard this, or anything like it?

Also, today on the Rush Limbaugh show , the guest host shot down the story that says that Ollie North fingered Osama Bin Laudin in 1987. Apparently, North himself has repeatedly stated that there is no truth to the rumor. Oh well, it sounded good:D

regards
 

Wiggums

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I heard the exact same thing. CNN doesn't always give the public the whole story.
 

BE1900DATP

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Does it Matter?
 

enigma

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Yes it does

BE1900DATP said:
Does it Matter?
Yes it matters. This business is my, and most other posters', livelyhood. If the story that I heard is true, it means that we are being lied to by our media/government in an attempt to pacify the masses. If the story is true, it means that aviation is taking a hit that rightfully belongs elsewhere. Being sensitive to the good Arabs amoung us sounds good, and is nice and politically correct; but if our government is ignoring real threats because of political correctness, we are being left vulnerable. And our profession is being left vulnerable because it now seems that even student pilots are suspects.
I don't appreciate the fact that aviation is taking a hit that rightly belongs to a radical movement and its followers. If we place blame where blame belongs, terrorists, then the innocent, the aviation community, is not punished.

It matters because the You and I are both at risk, and the government is allowing us to stay in that condition because they don't want to take the hard actions necessary to protect US citizens from a militant group of males, men who fit a well known profile.

8N
 

SentryIP

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enigma,

Like you, I don't want to start a flame war on this professional forum. However, I respectfuly disagree with you. Because of attitudes like yours (if I've read your post correctly) we did the same thing during WW II with the Japanese. I'm an Arab-American and fit the profile you're describing. I've also served in the U. S. Air Force for over 20 years and fought for my country in three wars. Operation ENDURING FREEDOM will be my fourth and I hold no sympathy for these criminals. If I misinterpreted your post, I apologize up front.
 
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Timebuilder

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Major Amin-
I think I understand your position. As a man with a military education, I understand that this conflict will require sacrifices to be made by all of us. Your sacrifice may be different than mine, since you may fit a profile of those who attacked us. During WWII, many Japanese citizens were required to make a great sacrifice during internment due to the actions of the Emperor. The vast majority of these people were loyal Americans. It is reasonable to believe, however, that some would have conspired to harm us during that time, and were prevented from doing so because they could not roam freely. The loyal majority of Japanese in the camps knew this.

It would be impossible in our modern society to ask that sacrifice of any group now, but it is not unreasonable to ask loyal Americans such as yourself to step up to the plate in this new terrorist environment. This may mean an additional search (or three) or being asked to remove a muslim head covering for a more complete search. In the case of the woman who is suing over being searched, I think her anger is misdirected. Instead of being resentful over her treatment, she should be resentful that other muslims have, by their attack, caused her to be regarded as suspicious. You also should be resentful. Now, your country will ask more of you in her defense, and I know you will honor your oath to help provide that defense.

Here is what I am not hearing in the media: voices of thousands of muslims condemning the terrorist movement. I see only leaders of various groups complaining of discrimination. Where is the complaint, which should be shouted from rooftops, that the Quoran does not support this activity? Where are the clerics that should be all over the media, countering the Taliban beliefs?

Osama didn't care about either one of us when he hatched his plan. Pass the word. And speak up.
 

enigma

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SentryIP said:
enigma,

Like you, I don't want to start a flame war on this professional forum. However, I respectfuly disagree with you. Because of attitudes like yours (if I've read your post correctly) we did the same thing during WW II with the Japanese. I'm an Arab-American and fit the profile you're describing. I've also served in the U. S. Air Force for over 20 years and fought for my country in three wars. Operation ENDURING FREEDOM will be my fourth and I hold no sympathy for these criminals. If I misinterpreted your post, I apologize up front.

Sincerely,
Amin Aur
Major, USAF
You have only partially misinterpreted my post. I am not attacking people of Arab descent, but I am attacking the government and media who ignore the obvious in the name of political correctness.

It disgusts me that a honorable segment of society, (aviation) is tar'd and feathered in the press, and shackled by the government when that segment is not the threat. We , as a society, continue to attempt to regulate tools instead of people. We outlaw guns instead of bad guys that shot people. We demonize cigarettes instead of the people who CHOOSE to smoke, etc. Now it looks like we will see airplanes and aviation regulated more tightly just because society doesn't have the guts to face reality.

Also remember that we are not talking about a random search of people who were doing nothing obviously illegal. We are discussing a young man who flew his airplane into a building in an attempt to cause harm. He did the crime, I want to know why we are blaming the aircraft/aviation instead of acknowledging his background and possible motivations.

regards
 

empenage

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enigma:

I have just one question....Is that a Ford or a Massy? I'm partial to the "Big M", Farmall myself.
 

Timebuilder

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Hmmm. I'll say Ford.

My favorites are the H model Farmall, and the old John Deere "poppers".
 

BE1900DATP

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Enigma....

First of all read my profile, I too am a pilot and have been affected by this... I guess the idea that I tried to make clear was muddied by the time that I posted it. Remember that this is a war on terrorisim, which is an idea/belief. It is not a group of people that we can put a finger on. We are currently bombing the crap out of Afghanistan not because they are arab, but because they supported/harbored the terrotists that did this to us. Now while a large number (almost the majority I believe) of terrorist incidents have been conducted by people of Middle Eastern decent, they are not an exclusive bunch. Take John Walker for example, if you clean him up, he's probably as american looking as apple pie, but has been infected with terroristit ways of thinking. The IRA has taken a stab at terroristic measures. So I really don't care if the TPA kid was Arab, Irish, or American, all I care about is was it a terrorist motive, or a kid looking for attention (aka Collumbine).

As far as the Jappenese during WWII. That can't be compared to this profiling, because at that time we were at War with a country, not an idea/belief like we are now. We could proflie the hell out of all arabs, lock them all up in camps, even gor so far at to lock up people with very good tans, and that won't stop anything, the Walkers of the world will simply take over....

What we need to do, is just what we are.... treat them all the same, and send the message that we will not tollerate terrorism at all....


The fireproof suit has been donned... Fire away....
 

SentryIP

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enigma,

Point taken. Thank you for your reply.
 

Citabria

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I have always known that most of in aviation are consevative individuals but half of you all sound like the factual however crudlike information emanating from conservative AM radio and FOX news.

This concept that liberalism has been the ruin of America has become such an accepted axiom as to make unacceptable if one disagrees with whatever the current mentality.

It strikes a abhorrent to see a group of men and women using 9/11 as the rallying cry for a new great generation. So we are not great if there is not a war ? Our grandparents were not define by WWII , but by a economic catrastophe. And guess what it was a liberal goverment which brought us back from the dead. It was a collective mentality of mercy and care for others which made them the greatest generation. Many of our families were saved by the New Deal.

Some of you did not have to live the ridiculous arm race and MADD. How to nations use smaller conflicts to whip it out and see who was mister big.

Now thanks to individual who have never felt or understood how taking a life feels we are back into the new "cold war ".

There will always be terrorism eitherby some megalomaniac individual like you know who. There are many cases in which these sort of actions although disgusting are the result of legitimate grievances. Remember terrorism is defined by the empire. Terrorism is the weapon of those without an army.

The question which we should all be trying to answer is why ? Presently we are the biggest guy in the block, how are we going to act ? Like the Romans, the britsbefore us we are acting like an empirelet us at least fess up to it and not kid ourselves.

Remember the most patriotic complement an American
can recieve is to be called a dissident.
 

RJFlyer

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Sounds like a lot of people have had their head in the sand. I heard and read the story of the kid's ethnicity weeks ago, on all the news channels and in the major papers. Does the fact that he's of half-Arab descent matter in all this? Not really. He's just another idiotic, poorly-brought-up kid on a copycat kick (like so many of the would-be Columbiners out there).
 

enigma

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It's an 8N

empenage said:
enigma:

I have just one question....Is that a Ford or a Massy? I'm partial to the "Big M", Farmall myself.

It's a 8N Ford, circa 1949( approx). I previously used 8N as a handle, but the new format won't let me us it anymore, so I finally figured out how to post the picture. I actually prefer my 1954 Farmall Super C, but somehow SuperC didn't look cool as a username. Sometime I intend to install an OLDs diesel in a SuperM/Farmall400

8N
 

Timebuilder

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Citabria-
You're a little new to the board (I think) so you may not know that I was a left wing liberal journalist before I came to my senses. I only heard one news outlet report that Bisharr (sp) was the teenager's original name. Did that mean he was going to become a terrorist? No, but if you look at his background, he is a child who was discarded by his Syrian father. Along with the copycat angle, he was probably seeking his fathers (imagined) approval by taking on the cause of radical Muslims. From my experience as a seasoned adult, this liberal concept of fathers being unnecessary is clearly impacting on our society, along with it being unpopular to mete out physical punishment. The people you described who survived the depression were all raised with the motivation to obey their parents or take a trip to the woodshed. This was not abuse. Ask a teen in a public school, who has only had a "time out" as punishment, resents authority, and sees girls as "ho's" to live through a great depression without taking the easy way of crime. Unfortunately we no longer teach, much less encourage, intestinal fortitude.

Certainly, America is great without a war (I have to grimace at the idea that a young pilot could be this misguided...) but this current conflict will be a useful catalyst to cause all Americans to review what is really important in their lives. You have no doubt only read the speeches from the sixties that I heard live through an old black and white television. I lived through the cold war. My friends’ names are on a black marble wall in Washington. You need some more perspective and experience, and until then you would be well served to sit around the fire and listen to the wisdom of your elders. It's your choice.

No, it wasn't a liberal government that brought us back from the depression. It was hard working men who abhorred a handout, along with their wives, our mothers and grandmothers. They tilled, milked, canned, and took in laundry. They grudginly agreed to useful work provided by the government. What would a liberal government have done? They would have just handed out money, which would have caused inflation, and we would not have recoverd so soon. Those Americans would not have taken a cent of handouts. Contrast that idea with the entitlement philosophy of our times.

What would have happened if the major powers had not followed a policy of a balance of power through mutually assured destruction? Read a little about Stalin and Khrushchev. It's clear what would have happened.

Terrorism is defined by the majority of peaceful people who agree, by a representative republic (did you know that we are not a democracy?) to live within a structure which provides safety, security, and a process for the redress of grievances, all while providing the blessings (..ooops!!!..a mention of God......yikes!...) of liberty under our Constitution. You are in serious academic error if you compare America to the British or Roman empire. You are in even greater error if you imply that terrorists are in any way righteous dissidents. Only you, a few liberal professors, and our disgraced former President are postulating that Americans have brought this upon themselves.

Here in the United States, you are guaranteed a right to speak, no matter how wrong you are. You may choose to not help defend that right, but others, those with the clarity of vision and the guts to carry it out will defend your rights for you. That is a blessing, whether you deserve it or not. If you choose to to express your frustration or disagreement by hurting people and fouling things up for the rest of us, we will single you out and deal with you.

The greatest compliment an American can be called is a patriot, not a dissident. If you confuse the basis of disagreement, the substance if you will, with the act of disagreement itself as a value, you have made a mistake.

I recommend you read some new books. You can start with "Slouching Toward Gomorrah" by Robert Bork.
 
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Citabria

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An extreme is an extreme no matter where in the arc is located. Withaker Chambers was devout communist
then became a reprssive anti communist so was David Horowitz for that matter.

Timebuilder you have a very quick wit and a great perspective. You might one make the latter your your own.

The people is this country are great no need to point out the obvious. The reality is that most of us under forty have live in lala land. The education which most of us have recieved is pathetic and our knowledge of the world sorrounding us is normally next to nil. Maybe that why GW was given the presidentcy ; he looks and knows about as much as the rest of us.

Anyway this is an aviation board not the FOX, CNN and etal site. Just as you read Judge Bork's, who is a distinguished scholar , do me a favor and read the original, Federalist Papers, The Wealth of the Nations and Das Kapital they might also give you a little perspective. It is nice to read the work of a Constituional Scholar but sometimes is better to go to the source.

There is very little Black and White just a bunch of grey in the middle.
 

1900laker

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So we are not great if there is not a war ? Our grandparents were not define by WWII , but by a economic catrastophe. And guess what it was a liberal goverment which brought us back from the dead.
Sorry but I think that both defined our Grandparents generation. While the great depression plunged the country into financial ruins, I believe that our involvement in WWII was far more important to preserving the freedom which we still enjoy today. I think of my Grandfather more in the setting of being a gunnery officer on the USS GWIN, standing side by side other courageous men while fighting against an enemy willing to commit suicide (kamikaze) in order to achieve its country's objective.

But I would like to go further and dissect your message piece by piece.

I have always known that most of in aviation are consevative individuals but half of you all sound like the factual however crudlike information emanating from conservative AM radio and FOX news
I wonder if there is a reason why an overwhelming number of AM radio talk shows are conservative. Could it be because that's what the majority of the people located in their markets are? Privately owned radio stations make money through advertising. If no one is listening, then no one would pay to put their advertisements on that station.

This concept that liberalism has been the ruin of America has become such an accepted axiom as to make unacceptable if one disagrees with whatever the current mentality.
First, I had to read that sentence a couple of times to find the meaning. And Yes, if you are a liberal and speak your beliefs, but the country currently feels that liberalism is responsible for many of our current problems, then you are likely to be criticized. The only one that may be unnacceptable to is the liberal individual. But fear not, there are still many outlets in our society besides Fox News and Am Radio talk that cater to liberals, such as the Washington Post, New York Times, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, Miami Herald, and National Public Radio.

It strikes a abhorrent to see a group of men and women using 9/11 as the rallying cry for a new great generation. So we are not great if there is not a war ? Our grandparents were not define by WWII , but by a economic catrastophe. And guess what it was a liberal goverment which brought us back from the dead. It was a collective mentality of mercy and care for others which made them the greatest generation. Many of our families were saved by the New Deal.
Even Tom Brokaw, a left leaning journalist on NBC, defines our Grandparents generation by WWII. And most economists would say that WWII had a great deal to do with our economic recovery as many factories reopened to manufacture weapons and armory for the military. Once the war was over, those factories were converted to manufacture exportable goods to boost our economy. The New Deal was only meant to last long enough to help give poorer families a chance to recover. Unfortunately, many of those programs are still in effect today, not doing what they were intended, but rather fostering the idea in many americans that the Government will support them, even if they choose not to support themselves. They do not view that support as coming from other people and families, but that the Government has an endless supply of money OWED to them.

Some of you did not have to live the ridiculous arm race and MADD. How to nations use smaller conflicts to whip it out and see who was mister big
I can't even respond to this one, because I don't even know what you were trying to say. Maybe you should sell some of your $10 words, to buy a grammar book.

Now thanks to individual who have never felt or understood how taking a life feels we are back into the new "cold war ".
Are you saying that the current administration is comprised of leaders who have no military experience? WHAT? I have run into many liberals and democrats lately that openly admit that they would rather have the current administration in place than what Al Gore might have enacted. And what kind of "Cold War" includes crashing Airliners into our skyscrapers and Pentagon?

There will always be terrorism eitherby some megalomaniac individual like you know who. There are many cases in which these sort of actions although disgusting are the result of legitimate grievances. Remember terrorism is defined by the empire. Terrorism is the weapon of those without an army.
What legitimate reason did bin Laden have for attacking the United States on its own soil, the USS Cole, our American Embassies, the first WTC attack? Was it because we believe in a different way of life? is that a LEGITIMATE reason? And terrorism is truly defined by the victims and witnesses, because afterall they are the ones terrorized. bin Laden has an army, an army of terrorist, that is organized and spread out in many different countries. He has a budget bigger than many small countries for their entire military.

The question which we should all be trying to answer is why ? Presently we are the biggest guy in the block, how are we going to act ? Like the Romans, the britsbefore us we are acting like an empirelet us at least fess up to it and not kid ourselves.
To be an empire, it suggests that you must conquer. How many conquerors in history can you point to that would provide humanitarian aid in the form of food and medicine to the civil populace of the country in which it is conquering? We, as the biggest guy on the block, are acting accordingly. We are sending a message to the world that if you have a terrorist camp in your country, and that group commits an act of terrorism against the U.S. or its interests, you can no longer disassociate yourself (your country) from the terrorist. If other countries will not or choose not to police its own residents, then we must do it for them once we become victims.

Remember the most patriotic complement an American can recieve is to be called a dissident.
That is purely your opinion. The american traitor fighting for the Taliban is probably a dissident too.

Please come clean now. Being your first post on this board, was all this meant to be flame bait? If so, both your post and mine will probably be removed before many can view it. But in any case, I would hope that at the very least you are thankful to this EMPIRE and all of its CONSERVATIVES for the right to be able to speak your mind in this country without being shot in the back of the head, like you might have been by the taliban in Afghanistan pre 9/11.
 

Timebuilder

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Citabria-
I guess I should have mentioned that I have read those works you've recommended. Ultimately, we are judged by God. I wouldn't want to be an unrepentant terrorist when facing that judgement. Thanks for participating.
 
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