Spins in a high-time C150?

Snakum

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Any caveats for spins in an older, high-time C150? I've already checked the rudder stop bolts to ensure that there's no way the rudder can get hung up - there was an accident in Canada because of this. The lady taking me up has spun them numerous times, but the times on the airframes are very high.

Any thoughts?

Minh Thong
 

DC9stick

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What are you referring to as high time. My 150 has near 8000 hr and I don't have any problem doing spins or any other approved maneuver. If you are not satisfied the A/C is up to doing any approved maneuver the A/C should be parked until maintenance is performed to return it to an airworthy condition.
 

Timebuilder

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As long as the "high time" has had no impact on the airworthiness (as stated above) you should be fine. The 150 and the 152 are "user friendly" for spins. I had to haul back on the yoke to keep the airplane spinning, as it tended to recover on its own. I started from about 6,000 AGL for the spins, since three good turns can eat up a LOT of altitude very quickly.

After the first couple of these, you'll want to do some more. They're fun!
 

avbug

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A properly executed spin and recovery exert no undue forces on the airframe; the age and flight experience of the airplane make no difference.
 
T

Traumahawk

Cessna 150's are way too dangerous...very risky...use a tomahawk :D hehee

Just watch the pull out, thats about the only thing in spinning an airplane that can create some dangerous stress, and usually only if it's done ham-handedly.....

---T-hawk
 

newmei

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My guess is that the "high time" airframe has probably had all the bolts and brackets replaced if it has anywhere past 5000 hrs....The brackets wear after a while they however generally don't pose a safety hazard other then some "creaking". I guess the point I'm trying to make is A) even on a old a/c unless you screw up you should'nt really cause any undue stress that turbulence would'nt. B) I'm sure that tail has had some work done to it and the high airframe aircraft does not have a "high time" tail, which I think is where most of the stress is put.

And the others are right, if you do feel comfortable doing spins which is covered in the POH then the a/c should'nt be flying until maintence is done that makes you feel more comfortable about the a/c
 

avbug

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There is no stress placed on the airframe in a spin, or in the recovery if made properly.

No extra stresses are added to the "tail." I've never heard of a tail replacement due to high time or age. The most stress that should ever be encountered during spin training is from a botched recovery from a high speed dive, and this stress will be encountered in the wings, not in the empennage. Likewise, a graveyard spiral, which results from a botched spin entry, will overstress the wings, but should place no undue stresses on the empennage.

What bolts and brackets? If you're talking about wing mount bolts, I see no reason why these would be replaced unless called out as time or life-limited items in the manufacturers repair and maintenance schedules. I'm not sure what brackets to which you refer; the only brackets I'm aware of that are subject to cracking in single Cessna's are the vertical stab attach brackets on the 200 series Cessna's, which do tend to crack with regularity. Otherwise, I've never seen a requirement to replace brackets of any kind on Cessna's, except perhaps seat brackets...but these are replaced for wear, and not fatigue.
 

Snakum

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Thanks all ... it's a 15K+ airframe.

Avbug ... "Likewise, a graveyard spiral, which results from a botched spin entry, will overstress the wings,". As my crusty old First Sergeant used to say ... "Could you collaborate?" (Elaborate further?) How can I best avoid a botched spin entry? Dive recovery?

Thanks again everybody!

Minh
(Soon to be CFI'n ...)
 

Pilotadjuster

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C152 SPINS

Spins should be a relatively low stress manuever for the airframe. Did mine in a 152 with over 17k hours and minor damage history (couple of new wing panels from an eagle strike). Even managed to turn one of them into a spiral with no problem (I got lucky and did the right thing to recover quickly...).

have fun. one caveat; even if you have an iron stomach (I do)--don't eat within a couple or three hours of the flight. The motion just isn't natural if you haven't done it before, and though I have never had motion sickness, I was quesy after the first couple.

good luck with the checkride from another former grunt (Armor/Cavalry).

PA
 

avbug

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Snakum,

A spin is a stalled maneuver; no stresses are built up on the aircraft, no airspeed increase is experienced. In a developed steady state spin, the aircraft motion varies but the forces which lead to the spin keep it in the spin until outside inputs are made to stop rotation and break the stall (reduce angle of attack).

In a graveyard spiral, airspeed is increasing, the wing is not stalled, and typically the spiral is initiated and caused by the pilot. The pilot sees a dive and keeps pulling back on the yoke or stick, tightening the turn and making it worse. As the aircraft rolls into a steep descending turn, forces rapidly build up until ultimately the aircraft can come apart in flight (usually due to pilot inputs, but it can happen spontaneously on it's own if left in the spiral). The primary difference between the two is the stalled condition.

The feeling between the two is very different, though the sight picture is similiar. The biggest instrument indication difference is the airspeed. In a spin, the airspeed will stay put, bouncing the needle at the stall, or even zero reading. In a graveyard spiral, the airspeed is increasing, and will push toward redline quickly. If airspeed is increasing, you're not in the stall or the spin...you're in a dangerous situation. Get the power off, level the wings, and make a slow, steady recovery to avoid a high speed (accelerated) stall...which will often lead to some violent maneuvering.

The feeling in the spiral is one of being pulled into ones seat; acceleration or G forces build rapidly, and it's obvious. If you were filming it, you'd find that quickly a handheld camera would be dragged down and end up pointing at the panel or the floor of the cockpit. Your head tends to do the same thing, and your sight follows. If you feel your chin tucking, you are probably not in a stalled, spinning condition.

In a spin, you don't have this sensation. You will generally have a strong awareness of rotation, unless you're already disoriented and on instruments (in which case determining the direction of spin may be impossible). In the spin, you'll feel the tail of the aircraft sliding behind you, and the nose rotating in front of you; you'll likely feel as though the aircraft is rotating around you. A spin is a coupled yawing and rolling motion which is continuous, but not linear; it rotates faster and slower and goes through "phases" of the spin. It changes pitch, and may roll inverted, or flatten out in cycles.

In the spiral, you feel as though you're turning. You feel the nose moving into the turn, but you don't have the same sensation that the tail is rotating around behind you. I wouldn't rely on this as a determining factor (look at your airspeed), because by the time you analyze the event to this degree, you've gone too long. As soon as you see the airspeed coming up and realize you're in a nose low descent and a turn, reduce power to idle, identify your aircraft pitch and roll attitude, level the wings, and increase elevator and pitch trim nose-up as required; treat it as an overspeed recovery and do it gently.

I hope that helps.
 

Snakum

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Thanks Avbug ... you guys are tops.

I understand what a graveyard spiral is, of course, and now I understand how to quickly determine one from the other (Thanks Avbug). I guess I'm just not yet clear on how I get 'spiralled' instead of 'spun'. I have always been told ...

Power-on stall, kick left rudder at the break, hold yoke for number of turns wanted ... power off, opposite rudder till rotation stops, yoke forward, manage the dive.

Is this correct? And if so, at what point could I start venturing into a spiral instead of a spin? I guess I'm asking what control inputs could lead to a spiral rather than a spin?

Thanks again all!

Minh
 

Pilotadjuster

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recovery

In a 152/150, you hold the yoke all the way back and let it go over the top, inverted and then you see the ground start to go around below you. It is definitely a Power OFF stall. As soon as the thing goes over, you take the throttle all the way out. To recover after about 1-2 rotations, you just apply the recovery method you described, actually the yoke to neutral (otherwise you loose more altitude than you want to), opposite rudder and allow the spin to stop. Rudder neutral and slowly recover from the decent. Airspeed stays pretty constant, though your rate of decent is way off the scale...

I got into the spiral trying to mimic my instructor forcing the a/c over to the right. I had not let the stall develop fully and only one wing ended up stalled. Much shallower dive, though you will see the airspeed build VERY quickly. Similar recovery, though you have to do it quickly or you can reach redline fast. Think I was at a max of about 120kts when we recovered. Way to avoid it is to WAIT for the stall to develop before you kick full rudder to enter the stall. They spin so readily to the left that it took a jog to the left before going over to the right anyway!

And hey, I'm an expert now; done them once for my spin endorsement (we did 10-12 of them, about 10 with me at the controls exclusively). Listen to these guys like Avbug and Bobby who have actually instructed instructors....

Fun stuff!
 
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