Some serious venting about Jumpseating!

flight-crew

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 16, 2001
Posts
167
Total Time
Some
I'm about to do some serious venting and I hope to get some good replies on what you think about this whole issue.

Ever since 9/11, the whole jumpseating deal has really been screwed up and ruined. Here's where we are at:

FedEx, UPS, and most of the other cargo carriers - NO JUMPSEATING ALLOWED WHATSOEVER by offline pilots.

All other majors - No cockpit jumpseating allowed.

The airline that you work for (or major associated with your regional) - You can cockpit jumpseat, and some require employment verification via telephone.


Now I'm going to ask a serious question which probably represents the biggest double standard out there! What does the FAA need to ride on the cockpit jumpseat? Their FAA I.D. and an FAA piece of paper authorizing them to jumpseat. That's it. Yet for most of us to jumpseat, we present our company I.D., our airmen certificate, our medical certificate, have our employment verified by telephone, and sometimes also present our drivers license and passport. That's 5 forms of I.D., plus a telephone call to verify employment! How do we know that the FAA guy isn't some terrorist who made up a fake FAA I.D. and jumpseat authorization paper. If the FAA is going to be cockpit jumpseating then we should be allowed to on ALL AIRLINES.

This has serverly affected the lives of thousands and thousands of pilots. To this day I can't believe that ALPA hasn't taken a stronger stance on this. I personally don't think we should have returned to work until this whole jumpseat thing was worked out, or at least some hard deadline was set. If they want to set up some type of national verification center then fine, but lets not take 10 years to do it! I'm not sure if all of these new jumpseating policies and procedures are FAA, Company, or a little bit of both, but it needs to be dealt with immediately. I'm tired of the procrastination and delays. This could go on for years.

One last point that I would like to make. I would hope that someday every airline would allow unlimited jumpseaters. To the ones that already do today, kudos to them. It just kills me to see a plane full of empty seats leave the gate with 3 or 4 jumpseaters who couldn't get on because the airline would only allow one jumpseater. The seats are empty anyway, so what difference does it make.

I think the best thing that we can do at this point is to write ALPA and let them know that we are serious about restoring cockpit jumpseating. This current system is completely unacceptable.
 

328dude

Still turning two
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
1,647
Total Time
??????
Actually, I think ALPA has done pretty good getting things restored to where they are today. I commute to work. It's always atleast two legs. Yes, it takes me some more time to call and see if the planes full and I even had to buy a few ID-90's but atleast we still have the privilage. I know it's not what it used to be, but I do have faith that it will be back to norm hopefully soon. Yes, its harder to get home, but it can be done with some planning the night before. If the airpliens and the FEDs go ahead with this universal pilot ID, I think things will go back to normal. Keep your fingers crossed.


As far as FedEx and UPS go. It's not the companys fault. It's the FAA's fault. You can read the letter on the ALPA website that the cargo guys sent to all the airlines.

Your comment about not returning to work till the full jiumpseat is restored. Dude, I can smell what your smoking from here. Be serious.
 

cvsfly

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2002
Posts
723
Total Time
4600
According to our POI at our FSDO, (he) FAA can't jumpseat just for personal/pleasure travel. They have to be on "company" business (i.e. giving a line check or some other official reason they are there). Otherwise they (FAA) pays a goverment fare. This may not apply to all FAA positions and titles, but know the requirements, ask questions, and don't let them abuse their position or yours.
 

Draginass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
1,852
Total Time
5000+
ALPA started asking the FAA for universal IDs in 1989. FAA/DOT action to date? . . . . well, I wouldn't hold my breath.
 

Freight Dog

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,232
Total Time
7500+
Awhile back, I read on ALPA's message boards that some captains were denying FAA a jumpseat by stating they could not verify their credentials.

Talk about cajones... and I can't blame these guys...
 

sydeseet

Huge Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
575
Total Time
5001
Unlimited jumpseating on the majors (because they are more closely watched) was snuffed out by the IRS years ago. Our friends at the treasury department considered it improper for an infinite amount of people to travel at will without paying any sort of taxes. I'm serious about this. They felt that jumpseating had become a free-for-all and that it was being abused by the airlines and the pilots. Hence, one jump-seater per jump-seat - more or less. This is slowly going away as the IRS has moved on to bigger and better battles worth much more money so good times may come again. I think reciprocal agreements are out-dated too. If the person has a legit 121 badge, the right credentials, a union card, and the seat is available why do we have to have an agreement in writing??????? Can't we consider our seats open to everyone? Especially amongst ALPA carriers; we all pay dues to the same organization for the same privelages!!!!!!
 

enigma

good ol boy
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,279
Total Time
>1500
don't open that can of worms

sydeseet said:
Especially amongst ALPA carriers; we all pay dues to the same organization for the same privelages!!!!!!
Man don't open that can of worms here, or we'll end up with another defense coalition. :)

Seriously, great point about the IRS. My carrier allows unlimited jumpseaters, but the go on a non-rev pass if there is more than one.
regards
8N
 

skydiverdriver

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
869
Total Time
5000+
I don't know why the IRS would care about how many seats an airline wishes to give away for free. How could they tax something that is not paid for? Perhaps they need to come up with a travel tax, so that when you drive across any state border, you pay a fee. Oops, don't want to give them any ideas.

About the reciprocal agreement question, well, if you work for a regional, many majors wouldn't for a long time let any of them ride. The reason we have reciprocals is because some airlines are very stingy on their approved list, and if you didn't have an agreement, you didn't go. So, to help them allow you on their airline, you had to restrict them from yours until they agreed. This happened a long time ago, so many of you probably don't remember.

As for the snide remark about another defense coalition, I guess you can make fun of people who try to make things better for everyone by fighting for our rights. I suppose you make fun of people like George Washington and Susan B. Anthony too, don't you?
 

skydiverdriver

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
869
Total Time
5000+
PS,
The original point on letting the FAA ride without any more posative ID than the average pilot has is well taken. Of course, they run the show, so what can we do? Now you have given some terrorist a good idea too. Perhaps you should have kept this private. Oh well.
 

enigma

good ol boy
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,279
Total Time
>1500
Lighten up

skydiverdriver said:


As for the snide remark about another defense coalition, I guess you can make fun of people who try to make things better for everyone by fighting for our rights. I suppose you make fun of people like George Washington and Susan B. Anthony too, don't you?
SDD

You must be a real joy to have to spend time with. I feel for poor slobs you get paired with.

It was a Funny, a lighthearted remark. Grow up.

8N

PS, if you don't know why the IRS casts a dubious eye toward things that are "free", you are either ignorant or inexperienced in the world of business.
 

Freight Dog

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,232
Total Time
7500+
Actually, Hawaiian Airlines had open jumpseat policy for years now, and even now.. they take their furloughees too. They'd pile as many jumpseaters in the back as they can fit. I've seen as many as 9 jumpseaters from LAX-HNL.

ATA is the same way...

Hope the big 5 do the same thing....
 

T-handle

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
344
Total Time
6000+
uh

"All other majors - No cockpit jumpseating allowed.

The airline that you work for (or major associated with your regional) - You can cockpit jumpseat, and some require employment verification via telephone. "


Many majors allow cockpit jumpseating, but usually for their mainline pilots and some regional affiliates. I will speak for NWA and Mesaba. NWA allows up to 3 jumpseaters. They will fill the cabin first before resorting to the flightdeck. The only pilots allowed to sit upfront in NWA cockpits are NWA, Mesaba, Express I, and Alaska via employment verification.

At Mesaba, we have an unlimited jumpseat policy. We will take as many jumpseaters as there are seats. We will fill the cabin first before resorting to the jumpseat. The only pilots allowed to sit upfront at Mesaba are NWA, Mesaba, and Express I via employment verification.
 

skydiverdriver

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
869
Total Time
5000+
Enigma,
Sometimes it's tough to tell when someone is kidding, expecially with written text where voice inflection is not heard. However, I also feel sorry for the people who get paired with you, as you keep harping on the same thing over and over. At least I try to vary it a bit.
 

enigma

good ol boy
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,279
Total Time
>1500
That's why I used a smiley face!!!!

skydiverdriver said:
Enigma,
Sometimes it's tough to tell when someone is kidding, expecially with written text where voice inflection is not heard. However, I also feel sorry for the people who get paired with you, as you keep harping on the same thing over and over. At least I try to vary it a bit.
Dear Mr. Driver,

Whether I was initially kidding or not, I didn't invite you to take offense. Neither did I call you out, AND I did put one of those little "smiley faces" at the end of my sentence. So your explanation doesn't hold much water.

Other than your RJDC stuff, I really couldn't say what you harp on. I just don't pay that much attention to who posts what. So if you vary your input a bit, good for you.
If you don't like what I harp on, THEN DON'T READ MY POSTS.

Are you a female? You comunicate just like my ex-wife. First you take any opportunity to percieve a slight, then you reply as if you were in fact slighted, then you get mad because everyone argues with you. Do you ever step back and think before you react to ever situation or comment as if someone is talking to you? Did it ever occur to you that you are not the only person in the world? Did you consider that you may have been the furthest thought from my mind when I made a funny about starting a defence coalition. Like I said, Grow up.

8N

BTW, my carrier does have a no-fly option in bidding, and I'm not on it. Sorry.

PPS I searched both our post historys for the last month. You came up with 149 and I came up with 38. You're right, you do vary your input, or maybe you just have to have something to say about everything.

Remember, some people open their mouth because they have something to say, others open their mouth just because they have to say something.
 
Last edited:

sleddriver77

Reformed Bush Pilot
Joined
Feb 16, 2002
Posts
277
Total Time
10000+
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG????
 

trigeek

Active member
Joined
Mar 30, 2002
Posts
32
Total Time
5000+
As far as the FAA goes, they travel for personal pleasure all the time. The majority of FAA line checks I've experienced is by an inspector going to visit someone. All they have to do is fill out a form to justify their being there on that jumpseat. The flip side of that is I would rather get a line check from one of those individuals (normally in a good mood and looking forward to their trip) than someone like the loser who jumped us at 0530 out of Portland, ME on Mother's Day! Talk about a guy with issues...he was going out for the day to give checkrides.
 

starchkr

New Bus driver
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
1,065
Total Time
enough
Ok, so what about the 135 guys?

Should we be included in this open jumpseat idea?

I am sure most of you would say no, but why?
 

XJAVRO

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
132
Total Time
7000
As long as the 135 guys are on our jumpseat list at Mesaba we take unlimited. Airnet is on the list, so if you guys need to go anywhere and there are open seats pile in.
 

Caveman

Grandpa
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
1,580
Total Time
11000+
I have no beef with the freight guys personally but I think it's time we stopped letting them JS until they open up their JS. I know, I know .....it's the feds. However, I'm betting that when FedEx and UPS suddenly can't complete flights because the pilots can't get to work these companies could bring a lot of political pressure to bear on the folks that could get the JS back open again. Same goes for the rest of the Fortune 500 companies whose financial lives depend on freight. Good, bad or otherwise big money is the best way to get a little political pork served up.
 

niteflyr

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
Posts
199
Total Time
7000
So, what is your point?

You say you know it is the Feds that won't open up the freighter jumpseats, but you still think they should be banned from jumpseating? I don't get it. Actually FedEx and UPS mainly jump on thier own airplanes, they actually have a better network to get around on than most airlines. Things will change, it always does and there is no need for the PAXers to shoot themselves in the foot when this is all settled. As a former freight pilot I carried MANY pilots from the majors to get to and from work in the late night and morning hours and was glad to do it. I think ALPA and the others realize this and have been great to let the freighters keep riding. This all reminds me why I quit commuting, I don't envy anyone who has to Jumpseat.
 
Top