So much for scope..........

UALX727

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Here is a paragraph from an article I found today on Yahoo Aviation News. If this analyst is correct, there will be a lot more regional jet positions in the future for pilots and far less ones at the majors. Not a good thing if you are looking to eventually go to a major someday.


"The survey also showed the growing use of regional jets among major U.S. carriers. Such jets are smaller and cheaper to fly than "mainline" jets and allow the carriers to quickly respond to a change in demand for specific routes. By the end of 2004, regional jets will amount to 42% of the major carriers' fleet, up from 22% at the end of 2001, Salomon said."



42%!!!!!! If that's not outsourcing, I don't know what is. It seems to me that scope isn't working or simply isn't being enforced.
 

Little Deuce

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RJ's

Regional Jets are the new paradigm for the airline industry. We need to get used to it. Scope clauses are born out of fear and do not reflect the reality of todays changing industry.

As a furloughed AAA pilot I think we should have given the company them along time ago. Those who do not change are destined to be left behind.

Flame Away!
 

FamilyMan

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Time for one list. They are growwing, might as well get the regional pilots in your union so you can have true control over them.

SCOPE failed to control the regionals, go for complete control!!

FM
 

treetopflyer

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amen,

scene on a jumpseat sometime in the future:

jumpseater arrives to talk to"commuter" captain:
hey do y'all mind if i ride to (enter city code here)

CL65 captain responds :
UAL/AA/ DAL huh, sure!
hey, dont you all do the international feed for our domestic operation?

golly i crack myself up

:D
 

TWA Dude

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AA's VP Flight Kudwa said to us today that if it were up to them they'd fly only 777s. He also said they'd love to get rid of the F100s.

Let's face it; management will eventually get their way as far as RJs, scope or not. We can fight it tooth-and-nail and lose OR we can organize and try to benefit all parties. Just a hunch, but I forsee the former scenario as most likely.
 

OakRBust

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Tis Sad but true.....

I am currently a Saab kid but am lucky enough to be in the SWA pool. (no regional partner thank GOD!!)

Nothing better for a company to get a bunch of kids to fly 50+ seat jets for 50-60 bucks an hour. My company has 69 seat Avros (BAE's scoped to 69 seats) that captains are fllying around for 83.77 after 15 years. Compare that to 200+ at mainline co's.

I wish that all RJ's were at the Mainline parents so all of us as pilots (especially regional pilots) could make a hell of a lot more cash!! On top of that, there would be a ton more major jobs.

As for scope.... It don't work!!! Why limit seats????? Mainlines should have limited number of jets!!! A 50 seat limit sounds good but if Regionals have 300+ of them well.... you do the math.... In ten years Regional growth is going to be killing the major growth... And.... that ought to make all pilots, and their wallets, sad!!!


Goooooooooo SWA!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

pilotyip

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What is a regional?

When the new 100+ "regional jets" come on line flying non-stop EWR-IAH, is that a regional route, how about EWR-LAX is that a regional route. The term really doesn't fit any more. Some one with no code share, flow through etc. is going to operate these airplanes with $50-$100/hr pilots. The market place will define scope.
 

enigma

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It's not the airplanes

RJ's are not the problem. The problem is with the pilots who are willing to work for slave wages. Scope should say, All passengers who buy a ticket from XYZ airlines WILL be flown on aircraft pilot by pilots on the XYZ seniority list. My company is in the last year of our initial contract, and accordingly we don't make much, but we are going to fight like heck to get ourselves up to standard. Unfortunately, for everyone like us, there are a couple of hundred others willing to fight for the right to work for less.
It's too bad that they don't realize that the big money they hope to make later when they get to the big show, will be gone when they get there. All because they were short sighted.
8N
 

9rj9

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supply and demand

basically boils down to supply and demand. You can bust on a guy who flys an RJ for slave wages, problem is there are 1000's waiting to take his place for even lower wages. Time for one list, or the majors will continue to lose routes and jobs.
 

sgu

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what are u smokin??

Enigma,

enigma RJ's are not the problem. The problem is with the pilots who are willing to work for slave wages. My company is in the last year of our initial contract, and accordingly we don't make much, but we are going to fight like heck to get ourselves up to standard. Unfortunately, for everyone like us, there are a couple of hundred others willing to fight for the right to work for less.
It's too bad that they don't realize that the big money they hope to make later when they get to the big show, will be gone when they get there. All because they were short sighted.
8N

EVERYONE ELSE IS THE PROBLEM EXCEPT U EH....WHEN U WAKE UP AND PUT TOGETHER A COHERENT LOGICAL THOUGHT, COME BACK AND TRY AGAIN. BUT FOR NOW GO BACK AND SHUT YOUR HOLE
 

ivauir

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Thanks for your contribution...

Speaking of "holes" ... trapped in the iron grip of sgu's capital letters and remarkable quoting ability we should all shut up and agree with whatever point sgu was trying to make.
 

OakRBust

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All things will fix themselves... But it is going to be a long wait. In ten years when regoinal pilot groups are huge then they will get together and realize they have been being pimped by big brother and they will all fight for great contracts. When the contracts are in line with the parent co's then things will shift back to they were just a few years ago.



As for all civie pilots boycotting regionals and their slave wages.... What are the options????

Millitary, (very needed but we all know the huge wages earned here)

Night Cargo
135?????
Charters???

Just about every entry level pilot position pays like SGU's post.


And, If we combine the seniority lists it basically just reincorporates a really crappy B/C scale back into the mainline contracts that all before us fought so hard to get rid of.

I think that this is going to be a big mess for a long time to come.


But... That's just my opinion I could be wrong
 

Old Crow

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ENIGMA
You have the perfect name for your most educated and thought provoking post.

ENIGMA: (noun) To speak in riddles

1. an obscure writing or speach

2. Something hard to understand or explain

3. An inscrutable or mysterious person

Synonym: See (MYSTERY)


I think I'd think of a new name If I were you sweety.
 

CCDiscoB

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I wonder how much Enigma earned when he was starting out, some 6000 hours ago.
 

Smoove Ride

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what kills me in all this mess is how everyone thinks us regional pilot's are so blind to it all... how we're whoring ourselves out. please...

i don't like the way the RJ's are taking over either, but it's an economic fact that we'd better get used to.
you think i want to keep flying an RJ, for what i make, for a career? i maybe dumb, but i'm not stupid. i think most folks at the regionals know exactly what is happening. sure, there are a percentage who are staying put and don't want to move on (or can't), and are loving the growth. i can't say i'm one of them. yeah, great for now.... it's screwing me down the line.

the truth is the economy is shaping the airline industry now, and not the pilots. before 9/11, the unions had the airlines by the short hairs as far as control of their pay and what not. fact: labor costs make up 40% of major airline operating expenses. this is killing the major's, especially with all the high-yield business travelers gone.... i'm not telling you what you don't already know.

the control is shifting. RJ's and the crew's that are flying them are caught in the middle. we know what is happening. it's not what i want to happen, but i have little choice in the matter. one list, scope, etc... these are all attempt's for pilots to get control back in a situation that does't necessarily allow for any control on the pilots behalf.
flame away... -smoove.
 

skyking328

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What should a regional jet pilot make??

OK I cant take it anymore!!
Those of you that think RJ pilots are the fall of the industry please share some insight into what a 50 seat airplane should pay.
What should a 757 pilot make? Is the 757 pilot at ATA an industry whore because he gets paid half what a gal at UAL makes flying the same equipment???
I guarantee you I made more last year flying my 32 seat FRJ than did some guys in the industry flying DC9s, 737s and 320s.
As a matter of fact the IRS considers me wealthy?? Imagine that.
 

publisher

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artificial constraints

Whenever one tries to impose artifical constraints in a marketplace, they better apply to everyone in the marketplace or sooner or later, they will fail.

That, in the end, will always be the downfall of one list, the failure of scope. In this case, September 11th only exacerbated the failure.

This battle has already been lost, the participants just have not been notified.
 

OakRBust

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354,000 a year for a topped out 747 captain at ual on guarantee.

Don't you think that is why companies have to look for a different answer.


I don't think that anyone should blame the regionals.....


We are all just way to **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** greedy!!!
 

Dasher

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Get all the rj pilots in our union, WAKE UP, most of them are in ALPA, and look where that has gotten us. The bottom line is our mainline brothers at USAirways, or basically any other major, didn't want anything to do with us until they furloughed. What comes around, goes around.
 
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