RJ Training NightmareJust finished up RJ

DairyAir

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Just finished up RJ training and wanted to get some opinions about a problem that came during the simulator portion.

First of all the compny gave me and my sim partner three different sim times, 2 at 2000 till 2400 then one day off, 4 at 0400 till 0800 then one day off, then 2 sessions at 0800 till 1200
Needless to say my body clock was completely out of whack at the end of the 0400 to 0800 sessions.

Next we had three different instructors with three very different approaches to instructing.

On our first session with our last instructor also the first session at 0800 to 1200 the instructor was very demanding, yelled at me and my partner. Made us feel like total idiots whenever we did something wrong. Asked us questions like Have you ever made a V1 cut before, ( in a very sarcastic tone.) Also kept hitting me in the shoulder with a notebook while saying that is not the F#$*ing way you should do that. And then proceeded to threaten me when I wanted to end the training session. I undid my seat belt and said I was exhausted, and that this lesson was only hurting the progress we had made before this lesson. The instructor told me in a very threatening tone that if I dared to get out of that seat they would end the whole traing and call the chief pilot balh blah blah.

Needless to say my partner and I were taken aback by the event. With the changing times I had gotten only about three hours sleep in the last thirty and had the intellectual ability of a cantaloupe. The instructor was aware of this but continued to berate us regardless. Our performance during the ride was to say the least horrific. Which for us was a shock because our previous instructor said our progress was far beyond what was reguired by the syllabus at that particular lesson.

The debrief was about the same as the sim and on getting back to the hotel we decided to report this incident to the training committe at the Union. Calls were made to the Fleet Manager and he grilled the instructor and eventually it was resolved. We passed our checkrides and that is that

my question to you folks is what would you have done being put in our situation. The union tells us if we have any problems call them first to get it on record and proceed form there.

Any Thoughts
 

de727ups

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Huh?
well....

I've had some somewhat similar experiences from time to time. I've always felt too intimidated to walk away from the sim...instructors like that have a way of making you look bad and making you believe it was all your fault. Later, with a clearer head, you realize you should have done something more drastic and not taken their crap. I think you did the right thing by talking to the union....glad things worked out in the end. For long term training...we have the ability to switch instructors, once, with no questions asked. All I can say is....thank God for unions......
 

jordan

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Well, you can't complain about the hours, everyone gets screwed with the sim schedule. It would upset me though if I had instructors switch on me, much less switch more than once. Luckily, I had the same instructor throughout the training, and there were those times that every other word was F**K. But, sometimes it grills a point in your head, and when your on that initial sim check and you are about to make that same mistake you have done dozens of time, you'll think F**K right before you do it. I know some instructors are idiots and act like they are literally in the plane, on final, with both engines on fire and a sick passener in the back, and then a dual generator failure occurs. Take it for what it's worth......good attitudes will always make it through.
 

TurboS7

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Welcome to the club just sounds like normal 121 sim training to me, you must've messed up that V1 cut pretty bad to get a clipboard slam on your shoulder, usually it is just a newspaper.Just kidding.
 
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Ted Striker

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Wow!

Yeah, you did the right thing. I have never had anything like that happen to me, maybe I have been fortunate. Seems to me that the instructors are supposed to be setting an example, etc. Glad it worked out for you, it's not always like that. Most of the time they are very helpful and patient (to a point). Not sure where you work-but sounds like they need a tune-up. The times are horrible. Yeah, everyone gets screwed around a bit, but that was ridiculous. Just be happy you did the right thing and take it as a lesson of how not to be.

Cheers...
 

bobbysamd

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Sim "training"

I've had plenty of students whom, I felt, had the intelligence, and motivation, of cantaloupes even when fully rested and alert. Some of these folks, I must say, deserved the classic upside-head smack. Just the same, they warranted and deserved respect and that's what they always received from me, bar none. That's what you and your flight partner deserved, especially considering that you are professional pilots who fly the line, and who obviously have enough seniority to hold the RJ.

Absent the thought that perhaps this individual had a hardon for you guys, you did the right thing by following procedure. You could have been cowboys and try to deal with it your way. Both of you should consider yourself fortunate that you have an ombudsman function in your union. There are plenty of people who take upgrade training in aviation, as well as other industries, who have no one to go to when suffering an unreasonable training person.

Good luck with flying the RJ. There are plenty of folks out there who'd like to be with you.
 
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Marko Ramius

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TurboS7 said:
Welcome to the club just sounds like normal 121 sim training to me, you must've messed up that V1 cut pretty bad to get a clipboard slam on your shoulder, usually it is just a newspaper.
Maybe at some regionals, but it's pretty laid back most other places. At least that's what my experience was at a major, and my friends who are at National's, Charter companies have told me that their experiences at those companies were similar to mine. Not necessarily easy, but the people were laid back. That said, I can relate to the "club," because I've been there at regional as well.
 

TurboS7

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Usually the newspaper on the shoulder has a smile and a joke with it. I've been in good and bad sim situations, my first was the worst and my last the best. Maybe it is just a matter of getting used to it all-who knows.
 

skydiverdriver

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My training at the four regionals I've worked for has always been excellent. We have one examiner at my current company that nobody likes, but he isn't as bad as the one you had. I would have wanted to leave as well. Like the man said, thank God for unions.
 

atpcliff

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Stupid Instructor!

Hi!

What do you think of this?

While in the military, I had one instructor who didn't do very well-I think it was largely due to inexperience.

My 1st and worst problem with him was this:

While on an IFR flight plan/clearance, and under Radar control, he INTENTIONALLY busted his cleared altitude by something like 2500' (or more!) to try and prove a point.

I thought it was very stupid and it pissed me off!

After more problems, my stick buddy and I eventually got a new instructor.

Cliff
 

bobbysamd

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Stupid instructor tricks (apologies to Letterman)

Yes, it was stupid, but what was the point he was trying to prove? And was this in a MOA or something or in the PCA (Class A)? Did ATC say anything? I would have filed a NASA report if I were you. I don't believe that NASA reports are limited to civilian pilots.

Did his boss ding him? He should have.
 

TurboS7

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You guys would freak in our sim sessions. The instructor will intentionally give you clearances that are contrary to a given SID or STAR, they want to see you bust, to prove a point.They will give you vectors below the MVA, etc. etc. On my initial preflight on the 727 as a captain I found 36 "dimes", by the time you get to the end of the runway you are ready to go home. Our averge checkride for a PC last 4.0 hours. The 737 isn't as bad but it will be getting worse, our CP and DOS just got checked out and they are staying up late at night figuring out how to stump us. Oh to only be at the controls of the sim when they are doing their PC's.
That would be fun......I forgot after my initial 727 captain check the debrief was 45 minutes long with 50 items. Then the check captain said but all this is just little stuff, overall you did a great job-you passed. I am not military but all of these guys are Air Force academy grads and big time ring knockers. But it is fun to hang in there and at least get a grunt of approval once in a while.
I must say that after all the bs they are very fair, otherwise we wouldn't have any pilot's.
 

Flynfish

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TurboS7, just out of curiosity, how would one know if they were given a vector below the Min Vector Atl, (MVA)? As far as I know that isn't published on charts, only the controllers know what it is. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Keep the Cyan side up!
 

TurboS7

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You don't, but if they give you a vector below the MSA they want you to question it. If you are flying south to SCL(Santiago, Chile) they will clear you to decent to 6000 feet 150 miles out. What they really mean is you are cleared to decend via the MEA's to 6000. Since there is a 12000 foot mountain between you and your 150 mile point if you went right to 6000 that would hurt. They want to make sure your SA is where it should be.
 

TurboS7

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correction: I said vector but I wanted to say altitude.
 

AWACoff

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DairyAir, I am going to possibly make an ass out of you and me but I am assuming you work at Air Willy. My training on the Dork was quite different. I was actually disapointed by how easy it was. Was your instructor in the sim an ex-Laker with a major attitude problem? Of course we were a bit too laid back one night out in GJT. Did you know that the hold is published at 10,000 and that those blinky red lights in the cockpit windows are not master warnings? Doh...
 

DairyAir

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thanks everyone

I just wanted to thank al you folks for your insight into my little event the other day. One always wonders whether or not they did the right thing when handling a situation like this.

I am no stranger to taining of this sort. I hold several type ratings and have been flying professionally for many years and this is the first time I have had any difficulties with an instructor. That day in the sim may have just been a fluke, who knows, however I believe that my partner and I handled it correctly, and would probably do the same thing if it happens again though I doubt that it will happen a second time. I know instructors need to be demanding of their students but there is a point where the instructor should be able to realize that any further training, with regard to that particular session, will do more to hurt the students ability and confidence in themselves. I know I learned an important lesson in alll of this this and I hope that the instructor learned a little something as well.

As the quote goes: The student does not fail, the instructor does.

Again thanks for all of the input.
D.A.
 

F4U

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I am sorry you had that experience. I have been fortunate that all of my training and instructors have been very pleasant. Even my checkrides with the FEDS have been pleasant. You can have a demanding training program without being abused.

As far as hitting you with a clipboard, that is totally unacceptable. If you were doing so bad as to be unsat. You should be simply told what your weaknesses are and told how to correct the problem areas or sent home.

You are never required to allow other pilots or anyone else for that matter to place their hands on you. It sounds like you did a good job toughing it out.

I hope this type of training experience never happens to you again.
 
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