Part 61 Checkrides

Sean

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I'm thinking about going to ATP for my CFI - II - MEI.

Question...

I have done all my training up until now part 141. The great thing about 141 is that if you bust a check ride it does not go in your file. I have not busted a check ride yet, however if I did go to ATP and busted a ride it would go on my record...would this hurt me down the road trying to get into major's etc???
 

Saabslime

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Enlighten me as to how a bust under 141 doesn't go in your file. I've never heard this before
 

Sean

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From what I understand, please correct me if I'm wrong...I'm looking for help here, not looking for a fight...if you F up a check ride part 61 it goes on your FAA record...part 141 does not?
 

Speedtree

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If you bust a checkride you bust a checkride. 141 or 61 doesn't matter. If the DE is an authorized one he should be sending all those little carbon copies to the FAA regardless of which box is checked on it. Also, your 141 records aren't sealed as far as I know so any potential employer could ask to see them although I haven't heard of this happening.

As far as going to ATP you get what you pay for. They are in the business of giving you certificates as fast as possible. I believe they do good work and are organized. They have to be to run the kind of organization they do but there are limitations to doing something fast as opposed to thoroughly. I have also seen many CFI instructors in part 61 schools who probably aren't much better. My advice is that if you want to get the best CFI training get it through a good 141 school or from an experienced CFI somwhere. Be overprepared.

Busting a checkride does not mean you can't get hired by a major. Passing all your checkrides means you have a better shot than the guy next to you who failed one. all other things being equal. How you handle a bust is a large part of what happens to you.

regards.
 

FlyinBrian

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Busted is Busted

There is NO difference between a 141 and a 61 checkride. They use the same PTS, and a bust is a bust. The misconception that a 141 bust doesn't count comes from a practice that some 141 self-examining schools use.

Some schools with examining authority will count a checkride bust as an "end of course check", the results of which are not submitted to the FAA. This allows these schools to maintain high pass rates. I really don't know anything about the legality of this practice. To me it certainly seems unethical.
 

jaybird

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In house authority

The only way a busted checkride will not show up up on your record is if the 141 flight school has in house examining authority. Not all 141 schools have this. Riddle is an example of in house examining authority. If you fail a checkride there no, it not show up in your FAA records. If you did the ratings 141. You can however take a 141 course and have a DE give the checkride and yes the failure will be noted in your FAA records.

The commercial course at ERAU is the only course where you must take a DE ride and yes a failure will show up on your record.

The only real advantige I see to 141 is that you usually get college credit for the ratings and if your low time you are exempt from the 250 hour rule for the commercial rating. 61 is a hell of a lot easier and cheaper.
 

Timebuilder

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Sean

Perhaps what you are referring to are the "stage checks" which are a part of 141 programs. They are not actual checkrides, but are considered to be opportunities to see how the student is progressing, find any instruction anomolies, and provide any needed insights or instruction from the chief, assistant chief, or designated instructor named on the 141 certificate. Remedial instruction or notes about the stage check would normally be placed in the 141 folder, not forwarded to the FAA to become a part of your records potfolio. The FAA 141 inspector for you school will often visit and review records as they feel appropriate, but that is where it would normally end.

Actual checkrides for a certificate or ratings are a part of your records.

I considered the company that you are looking at for my initial CFI, and due to my personal experiences, I would go there or go to a similar company instead of the outfit where I stayed. I see nothing wrong with ATP for your ratings, and they hire from their graduates.
 

ILLINI

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To answer the question as to whether a 141 "Final Lesson" or "Checkride" goes on your record.... well, it depends.

Remember, if you start a 141 program, you cannot count any of your time prior to being enrolled in the 141 program towards the 141 hour requirements (there is an exception which i'll mention later). If you are enrolled in a 141 program and you take your "Final Lesson" with an instructor from your school with examining authority, then no you won't get a pink failure slip. If you fail to meet the requirements of the PTS, the instructor would count the oral and/or flight as just another dual lesson and you will not recieve a pink failure slip. You go back for additional training in the trouble areas and then try again. If you meet all PTS requirements, then the lesson will be counted as your "End of Course Lesson" and you will be issued a graduation certificate and your temporary with a copy going the the FAA.

It is also possible to be enrolled in a 141 program with a 141 school and still getting a pink slip if you don't meet the PTS standards. For example, as I mentioned earlier, you are allowed to credit a certain percentage (I think 25%, but not positive) of previous time towards the 141 hour requirements. However, if you decide to do this, the 141 school loses examining authority and you must take your "ride" with a DE or the FAA. In this situation, if you don't meet the PTS requirements you will be issued a pink failure slip, with a copy going to the FAA for your record. Again, if you pass you will be issued a temporary and graduation certificate from the 141 program. This would also be the case if the 141 school you were enrolled in has not been granted examining authority by the FAA as jaybird mentioned.

In either case, you will be tested on the same areas of operations and tasks, and be held to the same standards. In my opinion, it shouldn't matter if you take a "ride" with a DE, the FAA, or a company instructor with examining authority. If you are ready for it, you will do fine and pass. If you are really concerned about failing, then you're probably not ready and should study a little bit more.
 
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Timebuilder

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Interesting insight, ILLINI. I have no experience with the self-examining authority procedures. That sounds like what Sean could have meant. Thanks.
 

bobbysamd

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141 stage checks

I second Jaybird on all his points. Your 141 school must have self-examining authority for a bust on your final stage check not to show up in the FAA's file. Your final stage check for a flight course is your checkride. The 8710 documenting issuance of your graduation certificate will appear in your file.

If your 141 school does not have self-examining authority, you will still take a final stage check for a flight course and be issued a graduation certficate. Then, you take the certficate, a completed 8710 and your properly endorsed and signed-off logbook to a DE and take a practical. Bust it, and it goes in
your FAA file.

When I started at Riddle-Prescott, we were 141 and had just lost self-examining authority. We sent students to DEs for their practicals. We got self-examining back and no longer had to send students to DEs. But we still had to put all the same signoffs in their logbooks. I counted my passes and failures the same way as Part 61, which satisfied FSDO at CFI renewal time.

I went to FSI in Vero and it was a virtual repeat of Riddle; the difference being that FSI had not had self-examining authority before.

The long and short of it is Part 61 busts will show up, but whether they'll affect your hiring chances just depends. People bust rides and get hired. Bust too many rides and your chances diminish. Checkride success or failure is not the only criterion recruiters use when hiring pilots.

Good luck with your training.
 
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FlyinBrian

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141 FYI

Just in case anyone is curious: The amount of previous NON-141 time you can count toward a 141 program is 25% OF THE 141 SYLLABUS. i.e. If a Private 141 syllabus has 35 hours in it, you can receive up to 8.75 hours of credit in the syllabus. If you have 8.75 hours total time, you can count all of it. If you have 270 total time, you can count 8.75 hours of it.

If you have previously attended a part 141 school, and are transferring to another part 141 school, you can receive credit for up to 50% of the new school's syllabus.

Also, just to be clear, some people seem to think that only collegiate programs or very large schools are 141. There are many many local FBO's that are certified part 141 schools. Just FYI...
 

Sean

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checkrides

Good info!

Thanks for everyone's help.
 

jaybird

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Yes Brian is correct. Don't let them fool you by telling you that you now need to fly as much as possible to build your hours if your going to continue on with your commercial. It happened to one of my friends. He continued part 141 and they told him to build hours by renting. Well, you guessed it none of those hours transfered. At least he got the experience though.
 

MJEPilot

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Went to ATP

I went to ATP so I can provide you with the type of perspective you are looking for. I finished ATP in 80 days with all my ratings and no busts. But, there was another person there who busted all but 2 rides (so, 4 out of 6 he busted). I think if you bust one or two you are alright, when it gets to be more than that is when you should start being concerned when you go for an interview. ATP runs a great program. If there were people consistently failing then word-of-mouth would get around and no would be shelling out $25,000 to go there (get my drift?). It is the best way to do it and it is a lot of fun if you get the right instructor.
 

FlyinBrian

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Jaybird, I feel your friend's pain. I worked at a 141 school, and I was always honest with our students. You will hear schools tell you that under part 61, you need 250 for the commercial, and under 141 you only need 190. This is a half-truth. That 190 hour comes from adding together the MINIMUM part 141 syllaubs hours for Private (35), Instrument (35), and Commercial (120) ALL of these hours must be completed in a 141 syllabus. If you have 160 hours, and an instrument rating, the MINIMUM total time you could complete your commercial in under part 141 would be 250 hours. This assumes you recieve the 25% credit for previous experience. Another common example: If you have 100 hours and NO instrument rating, you will most likely have at LEAST 225 hours before you get your commercial. Also, consider that a 141 commercial syllbabus if BORING and repetitive. (120 hours to learn 3 new maneuvers) Under 61, you can have a lot more fun, go on some sweet cross countries, you will do less dual instruction, and probably save some money. I'm in no way bashing 141, just trying to tell people to investigate their options carefully, and watch out for the sunshine that schools will blow at you. Many people have 200 hours before they start their commercial, and it would be downright foolish to complete a commercial under 141 under those circumstances. Especially considering that a 141 school is capable of abbreviating the syllabus and doing your training under 61 to avoid spending too much of your money. You get the same quality, but better suited to your needs. Many schools won't tell you this (for obvious reasons.)
 
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