Padded logbook question?

Mitsipilot

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Posts
60
Total Time
5600+
After questioning a student of mine about several entries he made in his log book, he admitted that he had padded his log book several years ago. It is only about 10hrs he said. He said that the N# he put down does not even match the type of plane he logged. He realises what he did was wrong and wants to fix it. My student wants to go on and pursue an airline career. Any ideas how to fix his logbook so that it will not draw an unusual amount of attention during an interview.
 

jetexas

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Posts
833
Total Time
8000
If he's a student pilot, then he probably does'nt have many hours. Get a new logbook and re-enter the 'correct' time.
 

Mitsipilot

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Posts
60
Total Time
5600+
He is actually a multi-engine student, and has at least 600hrs in there including many endorsements. I think it may be too much to reconstruct.
 

VFR on Top

Dorkprop Driver
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
306
Total Time
1500+
Tell him to not log the next 10 hrs he flies and his Karmic debt will be repaid. :D

Who's gonna cross-check N-numbers with aircraft types, 'cept maybe the FAA (if he has an accident)?

The moral of the story: padding just isn't worth it! Don't do it!
 

Wiggums

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
1,040
Total Time
.
Do nothing.

How did you figure it out? If some random pilot picked up his logbook would be spot it? Hell, my logbook errors total more then ten hours right now. I would leave it the way it is, and hope that he'd learned his lesson.
 

bobbysamd

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
5,710
Total Time
4565
P-51 (Parker 51) Tiime

This incident provides a great teaching opportunity. Pull out the section of Part 61 about logbooks. Lecture your student about how a logbook is a legal document and put a little fear in him about the ramfications of padding time. You can also throw in how potential employers will send him home if they suspect a padded logbook. He'll never do it again. Remember the law of intensity.
 

BigFlyr

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
358
Total Time
10700+
Leave the logbook the way it is. No one will ever try to match N #'s with aircraft unless by some strange coincidence someone recognizes one of those N #'s as false. Also, if this person is considering an aviation career, the electronic logbook is definitely the way to go. You can make all the corrections you need, you can create neat reports and all you need to back it up are the little red books or your old logbook, or you can continue to use the "classic logbook" for endorsements or signoffs. Either way, your electronic logbook reports will draw attention away from the old paper one.
 

Cornelius

Where's Pancakes House
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
475
Total Time
7000
I had my logbook audited twice in the last year and both times came up with nothing. The funny thing is that there are a bunch errors in both of them. I agree with everybody else about leaving it in there. One thing you may do is change the N-Number to a flight schools aircraft or a friends aircraft.
 

Stinger6

Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Posts
10
Total Time
850
That *other* message board...

Mitsi,

Didn't you like all the answers you got over there?
 

avbug

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2001
Posts
7,602
Total Time
n/a
Recently I had a conversation with a gentleman who interviews applicants for an airline. He told me about an applicant who had presented his logbook during the interview. As the interviewer flipped through the logbook, he came across a particular airplane. He asked the applicant how he liked that airplane, and the applicant carried on about how much he liked it. The applicant didn't get the job, because the airplane belonged to the interviewer, and no one else used it.

Don't bank on not getting caught. Convince the student that errors are inappropriate, and details are important. It's important to remember that the logbook is a legal document, and the FAR specifically addresses falsification in the log.

As far as the problem itself, there are three potential soloutions. One is to construct a new log. 600 hours isn't all that much to create a new log, and it would be far better than getting caught with false information in the log. You caught it. He or she knows about it, and apparently it's an issue to deal with; it's causing some discomfort.

The second method is to simply line out the entries, and make a notation on the current log entry line that the total times in the following columns (xxx, xxx, xxx) have been ammeded as follows. This is very unobtrusive, and unless someone looks for the specific entry, won't be noticed.

The third method is to simply make a logbook correction entry as above, adding or subtracting the times as appropriate. This entry blends in. It is discreet. However, it does nothing to address the issue of prior falsifications. The most appropriate effort, then, is to create a new logbook. It all comes down to how big a deal the student thinks it is, and what he or she is willing to live with.

The FAA no longer examines logs or researches them to gain authorization to take the ATP written, so that's not an issue. If the entries are changed or deleted, and these entries were used for experience to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating, this could place the student's certification in jeopardy, and warrant enforcement action.

In the event of an insurance claim, or an investigation due to other reasons, logbooks can become the source of intense scrutiny. I was present very recently during the loss of a public use aircraft. The individual who was on board had altered his history and logs, and he was discovered in the ensuing investigation. Because of the circumstances, he may be facing federal charges, largely stemming from his falsified logs, which placed him in the airplane to begin with.

600 hours isn't much experience. Create the new log, call it penance or repentance, or just covering one's tracks. Get the signatures put back in the book, or simply leave them out and reference the old book. Make a notation in the new book that this is a recreation with adjustment for math errors, without specifying what the errors are, or where. If questioned, both logs may be presented as evidence of experience, and the endorsements may simply be retained in the old logs. From a practical standpoint, two logs are far less subject to scrutiny than the one, and the appearance of an effort to tidy the logs will make a positive impression. Good luck!!
 

Mitsipilot

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Posts
60
Total Time
5600+
Thanks guys for all the great answers. The way I spotted it, was that the aircraft in question is somewhat of a unique aircraft, especially for his logbook. When I just asked him who's airplane that was, he told me about the padding.

Stinger6, I am just looking for as much input as possible.

It sounds like recreating the log would probably be the best idea. However, I am doubtful that he would go back and get, or even be able to get all of the endorsements. Let me ask you this: Would it be ok to maybe just "cut and paste" the endorsements from the old into the new. If he was asked why he did this, he could just simply state, (like said above) there were mathematical errors in the original and wanted his logbook to be more accurate; unable to locate all past instructors would be the reason for the "cut and paste". What do you all think?

Thanks again
 
Last edited:

avbug

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2001
Posts
7,602
Total Time
n/a
Don't "cut and paste." Simply create the new log and make a notation in the front of the log that this is a recreation due to some previous errors. Many pilots create a new log to tidy it up and make it look more professional. The old log may be held in reserve, with all endorsements, if anyone cares to see them. This is a typical, and acceptable arrangement.

Leave the endorsements out of the recreation, and simply refer the reader to the old log. The reader should then refer to the "old" log only to view the endorsements. Any browsing of the logbook will be done in the new log.

Commonly today, people bring computerized logbooks to show. This may be another alternative. Keep the handwritten logs in reserve, in a briefcase, and present the computerized logs.

out of curiosity, what unusual aircraft did the student log time in, that stood out?
 

ksu_aviator

GO CATS
Joined
Dec 1, 2001
Posts
1,327
Total Time
4100
I heard a similar story as above...only someone had gone to the FAA to get his ATP in a Baron. What the guy had done was he sat at the airport and when he saw an airplane land, if he was qualified in it he logged it. It just so happened that one of the airplanes he had logged was owned by the examiner. The examiner saw his tail number in the book, and violated him. I'd bet his flipping hamburgers somewhere right now.
 

JetProp

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
170
Total Time
10000+
I knew a guy one time, who had his car broken into one night while it was parked in his driveway. Thieves pulled out his stereo, CD's, radar dectector, and his briefcase. Unfortunately, he's a pilot and his logbook was in the briefcase. Lucky for him, he had copied the last two pages of his logbook(for safe keeping) prior to the incident.

In his new logbook, he forwarded the time from the copies and made a notation that the previous logbook had been stolen. Of course, the prudent pilot saved a copy of the official police report listing the stolen items.

Darn thieves never were caught and the stolen propety never recovered.
 

Huck

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2001
Posts
1,076
Total Time
11,000
There was a Beech 99 crash around here a few years ago. Turns out the captain was up to his fourth logbook, and just so happened that all four were onboard and burned up in the accident. He said he was reviewing all his flight time on layovers.....
 
Top