No Teamsters at Flexjet!

Imissmypilot

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Be grateful the people with all the proof needed to bust your ass with the FAA aren't as hell bent on retribution as you seem to be hell bent on excusing your narcissism, stupidity and deception.
One of them may be becoming hell bent very soon. This could get interesting.
I know. He should have just kept his mouth shut and his head low after that picture surfaced but he just couldn't help himself.

Even so, I'd still advocate figuring out how to put this behind you or move on. The only man in control of how gracefully that's done is Kenn Ricci. It will be interesting to watch his next few moves because they will be what determines an end to this division or it's continuation.

Either way it be exactly what he wants. I'm truly astounded at his masterful skills. Fracmonkey, I'm not so sure I agree with you the union lost this. In my opinion Kenn Ricci won it. You have to give credit where credit is due.
 

Kermit_D_Frog

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What was the strategy again? Make the job so horrible that nearly everyone that sticks around is only doing so because of the huge skeletons in their closet? Everyone who can leave, has? Except the poor unfortunate few that should have left sooner but will be scrambling now to get out before the place folds? That strategy? Well, then I guess he won. It sure will be fun to watch.
 

squawk

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What was the strategy again? Make the job so horrible that nearly everyone that sticks around is only doing so because of the huge skeletons in their closet? Everyone who can leave, has? Except the poor unfortunate few that should have left sooner but will be scrambling now to get out before the place folds? That strategy? Well, then I guess he won. It sure will be fun to watch.
So, the IBT was the power structure that was holding up this company?
Now that they are gone, we are going to fold like a bad hand?
I had no idea!
 

Dirty Squirrel

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Everyone who can leave, has?
That is a ridiculousIy broad assumption. Sounds like my teenage son (Everyone!). I could leave if I wanted to. If I change my mind and decide to leave, I will. And, don't feed me the line of BS that no one will hire us...
 

Kermit_D_Frog

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You could try Great Lakes. Except they failed for a lack of pilots willing to work for a fleabag operation. Lol.
 

GE6108A

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Members in good standing (i.e. dues payers) have withdrawal cards, the rest of you self-interested dumb a$$ pilots will find employment at unionized carriers challenging. There are a bunch of truck driving schools looking for candidates but you may want to save some money to pay for that training.
 

FracMonkey

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Frac,
You are correct on a few points, but your blame is slightly misplaced. First, history is going to repeat itself which is why the industry is largely mocking you guys. We have already seen the Ricci show at Travel Air/Flight Options before and we know how it ends. The majority of his employees will not be "winning". He is a great salesman, a profound narcissist and a staggering liar.
1108 made a lot of missteps and they were outgunned. Ricci threw everything at them but the kitchen sink and you conveniently forget, it probably cost Ricci more to pursue than it did the IBT to defend. Imagine if he actually used that money responsibly and maybe paid you guys or bought more airplanes. The numbers don't match his assertion that you are growing. You aren't.
You all miss a simple concept, in that unity provides strength. You are your own worst enemy. You provided no leverage for your negotiators and Ricci exploited you. Yet you blame this third party, the Union. You fundamentally don't get that you are the union and you had some control over your future if you had just taken the time to learn how to be a unionized pilot. At some point, you guys are going to figure this out and you'll have no one to blame but yourself. The ENTIRE industry told you not to do this but you think you are smarter than the rest of us. You guys aren't the highest paid and you never will be. You just made sure of that.
The arrogance is another reason the union lost and your own words provide a prefect example of that arrogance. "You this, and you guys that." I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and proceed as though your "You" statements are directed at the collective and not me personally. Either way, it doesn't change the fact the you as an obvious supporter would like to place blame anywhere but where it actually belongs. The union ran a p*ss poor campaign and the results were foreseeable, especially given the deafening silence the pilot group heard from the international and the airline division.

As far as unity goes, that is not something that happens organically. It was the union leadership's job to build solidarity and they didn't do that. I personally know that the recommendation was made that a solidarity committee be stood up to build support for the union. That recommendation fell on deaf ears due in large part to the aforementioned arrogance. The union's leadership thought they had all the answers and true to form discounted a well reasoned recommendation from a member.

Your statement about us thinking we are smarter than the entire industry is yet another display of the arrogance of organized labor. I'm just going to let that t*rd lie there and stink. There's no need to expand on that one.

Fracmonkey, I'm not so sure I agree with you the union lost this. In my opinion Kenn Ricci won it. You have to give credit where credit is due.
I agree with you 100%, credit is due. I am simply pointing out the deafening silence that was heard from the organization that the OneSky pilots trusted with their futures. They had their chance and they elected to turn their backs when the pilots who wanted to be organized needed them most. Very telling.

Members in good standing (i.e. dues payers) have withdrawal cards, the rest of you self-interested dumb a$$ pilots will find employment at unionized carriers challenging. There are a bunch of truck driving schools looking for candidates but you may want to save some money to pay for that training.
Again with the arrogance and doom and gloom. BTW, where did you get your crystal ball? Mine doesn't work that well and I would love to be as prescient as you. I know prescient is a big word. Look it up or better yet, ask your crystal ball to define it for you.
 
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Dirty Squirrel

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Members in good standing (i.e. dues payers) have withdrawal cards, the rest of you self-interested dumb a$$ pilots will find employment at unionized carriers challenging. There are a bunch of truck driving schools looking for candidates but you may want to save some money to pay for that training.
I was a MIGS and voted “no representation”. Hmmm.
 

DirtyBeech

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His crystal ball works because of the simple axiom that states that those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Ricci is 3 for 3 in having a union formed after being given a chance to run things his way. I’m not sure he’ll be 4 for 4, because the 1108 is your only option when you choose to organize again, and they may or may not tell you to pound sand.

As may the Airlines when the exodus continues. And it will. You just did something unprecedented. Something every airline union told you not to do. Speaking of arrogance.

The union, read you, wasn’t going to build solidarity. The 318 who just f’d themselves were always going to vote NO. Much like “squawk” ,who suddenly decided to play dumb on the subject, they never paid a dime in dues despite being forgiven back payment, never opened a union email, never participated in the process and never contacted their reps to get involved. They sat on their a$$es and expected it to just be handed to them, and then decerted when the arbitrator, who specifically mentioned the lack of unity in his rulings, gave them the barest contract that he could. A contract that the company fought tooth and nail against. Not that a single decerter could speak intelligently about a single proposal company or union.

No, Ken just had to wait for 20% of the group to leave while promising his true believers and returned furloughees/ transfers a bag of silver. 318 votes out of an original 700 person pilot group is 45%. Do you recall what the original organizing vote numbers were? Look familiar?

And, as predicted, 2NN started his fu**ery within 30 minutes of the vote. A ton of people just took it in the shorts on the seniority list that Kenn has made apparent he doesn’t honor anyway (hilariously the small group who lost the most with the ISL and were pissed about it just lost a ton more), individual employment agreements were reinstated which once again “aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on” unless you violate one, and those FO pay rates were raised to something completely uncompetitive with even the lowest paid ULCC’s.

A ton more people are about to leave FJ and you don’t have a prayer of recruiting anywhere near enough to replace them. In short, FJ will wither on the vine. Maybe 2NN is content to leave 1/4 of his planes uncrewed while chartering out the rest of his flying. He’ll be paying himself either way. Probably he’ll fold shop, sell off the remainder and use a different certificate to start again and maybe drag his FOK’s with him. But you’re done. Even if he FJ matched airline compensation you would be uncompetitive in schedule, quality of life, and workload with the majors. Done. Good luck with that.
 

Enough BS

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There’s about 6 of you boys dominating the fractional message boards. If you keep talking to yourselves long enough, you’ll start believing what you say is the truth (again). The real numbers point to the truth, you got it wrong!

Two years ago IBT already on the property had weak support and insufficient solidarity, evidenced by only winning by 20ish votes. Of those who voted for the IBT back then their true support was shaky at best and a down hill slide to present day. You will (wrongly) argue the company hired anti union pilots for the last two years and many supporters went elsewhere. I will argue the company hired pilots looking for work, just like you were when you came here. Your supporters who left didn’t believe either, and bailed. We could start a whole thread just on this paragraph but why bother? The result is reality and you’ve been through enough.

Another false talking point you have yourselves believing is how the 321 pilots who voted against the IBT won’t be able to work anywhere else. Obviously this type of scare tactic didn’t serve the IBT well. It sounded childish and makes you that spew the same garbage sound childish too. The industry knows the Teamsters and the intimidation tactics that are their signature. The industry also knows the IBT failed.

This was a battle against a failed organization that was on shaky ground in the first place. The 1108’s failure did more to hurt 96,000 unionized Pilots than the pilots who voted no representation. This will be reinforced when IBT officials go to court for the intimidating mail and packages that terrorized innocent families. I’d keep those withdrawal cards safely in your wallets unless someone asks to see it.

So to you guys who are the vocal minority it’s time to realize just that - your the minority. Give yourselves a break and let it go.
 

MOMOMOJO

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Apparently it's not Enough BS because you just added some more to the thread. Why are there only a few dominating the threads? It's been that way for years. A few talkers but many, many lurkers. I think you just want to shut down honest reflection and run away with your victory but you can't really do that and be fair.

The facts are 50 pilots made all the difference in the world. Firstly, it is just 318 who voted for you. You keep talking 321 but you can't because those 3 pilots still voted against management. Those 3 pilots still saw a need for protection.

By all calculations according to a poll taken earlier this year, there were approximately 190 pilots truly on the fence. They weren't strongly in either camp. They saw both choices as a decision between the "lesser of two evils".

If simply 49 pilots (or less than 10%) had chosen differently in the election we would be having a completely different discussion. So for half of the fraction you leave as a tip on a bar tab, it could have completely changed the outcome. That is not a strong win on your part so stop acting like it is and start doing something about addressing the issues at hand.

Let's talk about those 190. To be on the fence meant they were not opposed to unionization. But to be fair they were apparently opposed to this union.

OK why? Some were swayed by a completely inaccurate understanding of their personal outcome on SLI. By the discussions I've had this week with some I know we're in that group, 100% would have chosen the IBT if the were aware of the plan to reinstate longevity to the transfers. Ok your margin just shrank on that issue alone if not obliterated.

Next topic. MCBA. There were sections of both the fence sitters and strong pro company forces whose issue was all chalked up to the MCBA. A contract management fought hard for. A contract born out of issues with the arbritrator. A contract born out of our own lack of solidarity or unwillingness to be less than personally myopic. Looking back I personally think the vote was decided by the arbritrator back in October. I chose to educate myself of the details regarding the MCBA but I'll be the first one to admit had not, I'd have been anti union myself. So let's assume 50 people did the same or the arbitrator was more fair. That's a low number. I could have gone higher but 50 is all I need to show you there goes your lead again.

Leadership. I'll be the first one to admit this is one area where the IBT needs to be honest there was a definite disconnect between what they thought they were accomplishing and what the perception of what they were accomplishing was to the pilot group. I think it was multifaceted. For most original Flexjet guys they were just never ever going to respect or trust a leadership team comprised of Flight Options guys. There was just too much prejudice to overcome. Then within Flight Options RTA guys, there was always a 50/50 division in the group regarding leadership at any given time. Regarding the very few Flexjet guys who did step up, for one reason or another they were problematic. To be perfectly honest, Flexjet was, is and always will be a playground for narcissists and these guys, in general, never sat at the cool table Except for one or two, you just didn't have the charisma needed to carry the day. Additionally, the complete character assassination spearheaded by RH and his frat boys didn't help. That job wiped out the positive characteristics of them that didn't depend on charisma. So yes leadership was problematic. I don't say it to diminish them but just to point out it was a reason. Fixing the leadership issue or at least not suffering the attacks on it, would have easily garnered another 150 votes when all I needed was 50 to prove the point your lead wasn't as strong as you claim.

The 96000 plus pilots that are suffering as a result? Don't you dare pin it on those reasons though, leadership included. Pin it on guys like the decert crew who instead of stepping in to fix these problems fought hard to ruin the union knowing what was at stake. Pin it on 318 guys who thought only about themselves. I know it's uncomfortable to hear but those 96000 plus pilots aren't suffering because of people who tried and failed. They are suffering because of people who didn't try at all.

Anyway, it's a fine debate to have regarding the why. But don't fool yourself into thinking this was a landslide or a mandate. As just discussed above some very minute differences would have completely changed the outcome of the vote.

But the vote is what it is. I'd suggest everyone get on the wagon of their choosing. Leave now or get on board. I was a strong union supporter but now that there's no union, I'll do whatever I can to help this company and my colleagues go as far as we can.

Management has a won a battle. If they don't change their ways they will lose a war. You coming on here with your balls and bravado doesn't help that goal. Guys like squawk who have less than 1/2 an inch of integrity or morality to stand on don't help. False claims of harassment (come on you know it's bull****) don't help. A fairy tale view of your landslide doesn't help.

I've been very vocal my issues with this company have never been Kenn Ricci. If he really wanted to right this shop, IMHO he should start by fixing people like you. Your divisiveness will destroy what he needs to do to move forward.
 
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MOMOMOJO

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I was a MIGS and voted “no representation”. Hmmm.
All due respect, I wouldn't be proud of it let alone brag about it.

If that's really true it means you either didn't educate yourself or didn't step up to help fix what needed fixing. Not exactly something to be proud of.
 

FracMonkey

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All due respect, I wouldn't be proud of it let alone brag about it.

If that's really true it means you either didn't educate yourself or didn't step up to help fix what needed fixing. Not exactly something to be proud of.
Some who understood what was going on either offered to help or pointed out places where the union was failing their members and were rebuffed and/or told that their criticisms and/or suggestions were unwelcome and/or unneeded. Not exactly something to be proud of either.
 

MOMOMOJO

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Some who understood what was going on either offered to help or pointed out places where the union was failing their members and were rebuffed and/or told that their criticisms and/or suggestions were unwelcome and/or unneeded. Not exactly something to be proud of either.
I 100% agree. However my sincere question would be how much did you really try? Did you talk to one? Two? Every single member of leadership? I'll agree with you some were tough to get them to trust you but after guys like Phil Delis, Jim Lisi, Mike Reed, Patrick Whitt, Ken Sarmiento etc... playing double agents for the past few years I can see where they might have had trouble extending the graces of control over to one of the "other side."

I can tell you I've been very communicative with the Flex side of leadership. There response has always been grateful and came with the remark I was one of the few who even gave a rats ass let alone would ask questions and offer dialogue. The fact is many many Flexjet pilots expected it to be done for them, without any personal effort and be done their way while all the while criticizing and degrading the FLOPS portion of leadership.

A few months ago when I called to ask if there was anything I could do to help with the effort after the decert was filed they said "hey we could really use some help with these message boards." I know there's a couple of others who were asked to come out of an observers role and post. But you were strangely quiet the whole time. Dirty Squirrel was toting the decert line. Logic tells me that's evidence you weren't in touch with at least the Flexjet side of things otherwise they would have tapped you too.

Listen this whole thing has been a complete circle jerk. No one won here, least of all the pilots. We need to figure out a way to move past it and on to better things either individually or as a group.

A large part of moving on will have to be accepting the fact there is no one more to blame than a pilot who did nothing, on either side, decert or pro union, but wants to gloat or bitch about the outcome. Saying you tried but were rebuffed is just a lousy excuse to help you sleep at night and you know it. The fact is 99% were lazy about this thing and we'll have to deal with those consequences.
 

Enough BS

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“If he really wanted to right this shop, IMHO he should start by fixing people like you. Your divisiveness will destroy what he needs to do to move forward.”

Fixing people like me? Why because we see things different? Man your going to need to fix a whole lot of people. Don’t you see this is some of the mentality that lost your union.
Maybe you lost your position as a union leader or you just worked hard for you cause. Your frustration is understandable. Like it or not people think differently and the IBT’s way of dealing with that got them the ax.

All the numbers you posted are irreverent because the IBT is out by a margin exponentially larger than what put them in power. The working conditions became much worse with IBT inability to deal with the company and their own members. Clearly the majority of people who work here didn’t see the benefits of continuing in this manner.

Earlier today I mentioned there’s only about a half a dozen people, a vocal minority dominating the fractional message boards. That doesn’t mean I’m not aware that dozens more look at them regularly. I felt a balancing opinion was long overdue.

The techniques used by your side failed and did not carry the day. My message is simple, people have different opinions.
 

MOMOMOJO

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Out of that giganticly long post I took the time to craft to point out the error of your bravado all you can find argument with is the comment about fixing your desire to remain divisive and thump your chest like you're the big winner when reality proves otherwise?

No one won here. Even at 318 - 220 with no fence sitters this is a deeply divided pilot group.

We either all get on board or we leave. It's as simple as that. I would suggest if you can't get on board with realizing there is a lot of work to do to get back to a point where we can all work together you should be one of the ones to leave. Just the fact that you thought to make the screen name "Enough BS" with the the sole intention of disenfranchising over half your pilot group (as proven in my other post) is proof you are bigger part of the problem than any Union ever could be.
 

squawk

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His crystal ball works because of the simple axiom that states that those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Ricci is 3 for 3 in having a union formed after being given a chance to run things his way. I’m not sure he’ll be 4 for 4, because the 1108 is your only option when you choose to organize again, and they may or may not tell you to pound sand.

As may the Airlines when the exodus continues. And it will. You just did something unprecedented. Something every airline union told you not to do. Speaking of arrogance.

The union, read you, wasn’t going to build solidarity. The 318 who just f’d themselves were always going to vote NO. Much like “squawk” ,who suddenly decided to play dumb on the subject, they never paid a dime in dues despite being forgiven back payment, never opened a union email, never participated in the process and never contacted their reps to get involved. They sat on their a$$es and expected it to just be handed to them, and then decerted when the arbitrator, who specifically mentioned the lack of unity in his rulings, gave them the barest contract that he could. A contract that the company fought tooth and nail against. Not that a single decerter could speak intelligently about a single proposal company or union.

No, Ken just had to wait for 20% of the group to leave while promising his true believers and returned furloughees/ transfers a bag of silver. 318 votes out of an original 700 person pilot group is 45%. Do you recall what the original organizing vote numbers were? Look familiar?

And, as predicted, 2NN started his fu**ery within 30 minutes of the vote. A ton of people just took it in the shorts on the seniority list that Kenn has made apparent he doesn’t honor anyway (hilariously the small group who lost the most with the ISL and were pissed about it just lost a ton more), individual employment agreements were reinstated which once again “aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on” unless you violate one, and those FO pay rates were raised to something completely uncompetitive with even the lowest paid ULCC’s.

A ton more people are about to leave FJ and you don’t have a prayer of recruiting anywhere near enough to replace them. In short, FJ will wither on the vine. Maybe 2NN is content to leave 1/4 of his planes uncrewed while chartering out the rest of his flying. He’ll be paying himself either way. Probably he’ll fold shop, sell off the remainder and use a different certificate to start again and maybe drag his FOK’s with him. But you’re done. Even if he FJ matched airline compensation you would be uncompetitive in schedule, quality of life, and workload with the majors. Done. Good luck with that.
I got out my crystal ball (actually a Magic 8 Ball) and polished it up as clear as I could and it predicts this post will not age well.
 

Enough BS

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Yes you had a long post, we can agree on that. Not sure what you proved with your numbers. My suggestion is leave the spin to the political experts, your not good at it. The fact is the numbers show the support for the union was never good and considerably less now. That’s not chest thumping or bravado.

Go back two years ago look at the posts on this and the VUH for examples of chest thumping and bravado. It was the IBT’s bravado that disenfranchised over half the pilots! The numbers prove it.

People like me have worked here a long time just like you. We’re not going anywhere! A couple of you said we’re going to get what we asked for. Fine go pick up your withdrawal card and seek what you have coming, elsewhere. (See we can all play this game).

Really I have no need to try and torque your nuts. It’s time for me to get over the last few years of the IBT’s abuse. It’s time for you to get over that they are gone. We all have the common need to get over it and move on.
 
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DirtyBeech

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I got out my crystal ball (actually a Magic 8 Ball) and polished it up as clear as I could and it predicts this post will not age well.
Bet it ages a ton better than your flipping off half the pilot group.
 
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