merging lists

busdriver

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Alot of what appears on these message boards is the tug-of-war between the regional pilots wishing they had major airline jobs and the major airline pilots struggling to hold on to what they have. While I am not a fan of regional jets and the erosion I believe they will cause in higher paying narrow-body equipment, they are unfortunately here to stay.

The only way I can forsee controlling the issue in a way that will benefit everyone long term is to merge seniority lists between the majors and regionals. Until we are all on the same side and truly united we will not overcome managements continued assault on wages for pilots. RJ's are a "C" scale! Yeah yeah...new contracts have arrived with 15 year wages of $100/hour, but often there are few if any people with the seniority to actually get paid this rate. I work for a regional and could probably negotiate B-757 pay of $500/hr. Management wouldn't mind... we don't have anyone here capable of making that rate. Why mainline pilots aren't in a rage over regionals flying with pilots under a seperate list is beyond me... and why so many regional pilots seems so content getting RJ's and contracts that pale in comparison to that of big-brother's is also perposterous.

ALPA calls us united... hardly. The pilot's of this industry slayed the whores at People Express, slayed the "B" scale wages, and now it is time to quit squandering over a bunch of bullsh*# that's leading us to act like underbid each other for the next "quickie" with management, and slay these seperate lists that give mangement nearly ALL of their POWER of pilot groups. Anybody else see what I see?

Note: may cause cancer, diahorrea, vomitting, heart faliure, hemorraging, ulcers, hairloss, and a lack of self-respect. Also, I've been know to be wrong :)
 

Old Crow

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Maybe I'm not quite up to speed, but wouldn't Delta have to decide to merge ASA and Comair with Delta first?

I understand that the unions must decide on an agreement of how to merge and what is acceptable. ASA and Comair have already done that trick...

Until Big Leo says jump it's really a mute point accept to show management that the pilot groups are willing to work together.

I'm behind you 110%.
 

FlyinBrian

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There are many many pilots who see what you see my friend. On the "old board" there was a very long thread on this subject. I think most of the sentiment out there was pro-ONELIST.

Here's my view on the Onelist thing...
mainline and regional pilots both stand to benefit if the merge is done properly. The only parties that lose anything are the companies who can no longer use the division to pit pilots groups against each other and ultimately pay them less than what they are worth. The following assumes that the lists would be merged by "staple"

Merging lists allows regional pilots to bid straight up to mainline equipment, giving them better career options and opportunities. In addition, it gives the entire pilot group a whole lot more bargaining power, which allows them to negotiate for decent work rules, and wages appropriate wages based upon ASM's. (still lower than the narrow body mainline equipment of course.)

Mainline pilots would never have to worry about losing their jobs/routes to "B scale" regional pilots. I know there are many furious furloughed mainline pilots who are watching their old routes being flown by RJ pilots, who (on the average, no flames please) have less time and experience. In the event of a furlough, "mainline" pilots could be displaced to regional equipment, and would suffer the corresponding pay cut, but at least they'd still have jobs.

Pilots who may suffer from onelist include senior regional pilots who have chosen to make a career at their regional airline. These pilots are currently safe from furlough/displacement. WHen they are stapled to the bottom of mainline's list, they lose this job security which have been a primary consideration in their career choice. I would propose that these pilots have the option of waiving their right to bid mainline equipment in exchange for furlough/displacement protection. This deal would not be offered to newer pilots coming up the ranks, and eventually these protected pilots would retire out of the seniority system, leaving a true onelist.

As always, I encourage constructive criticism of these ideas, but I think the onelist concept is somthing all pilots should be discussing amongst themselves and their unions.
 

FlyinBrian

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I should proofread, sorry for the grammar errors above... but I think you get the idea.
 

rudedog

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FlyinBrian,

I think it's an idea that should have been SERIOUSLY explored before the first RJ hit the runway. The major-regional seniority issue is a cancer that will only hurt us ALL the more we let it fester. One good thing is that at least the major guys are paying a lot more attention to "what's in it for them". We'll see how well things go with regional pilots' attitudes now that the shoe is on the other foot.
Merging any two lists is such an explosive issue that I'm afraid even recent events haven't brought it to the forefront as a serious enough concern to our futures. It will require a concerted grassroots effort on behalf of all unions big and small to resolve.
In my opinion, the test cases will be AA, CAL, and DAL since they own their feed. But what happens with USAir and its wholly-owned vs. independent feeders will be interesting as well. Isn't Allegheny, Piedmont, and PSA hiring right now? I know Mesa still has 316 or so on furlough. America West has no scope clause and is solely feed by Mesa, but Cactus is on the ropes anyways. I think United's management will resist any and all attempts to buy or merge with their partners. They've always preferred to subcontract, anyways. The bottom line is there will be several different "solutions" to this problem. The trick will be to make it work to everyone's mutual benefit.
 

RJFlyer

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Aren't we forgetting the fact that there are still regionals who aren't owned by a major (Skywest and ACA, for example)? Merging the ASA and Comair lists with Delta would ultimately end up with Delta farming out all RJ flying to non-owned regionals, as they would still be paying the "C" wages resulting in lower overall costs. Then where are the jobs for the (formerly) ASA and Comair pilots who were stapled to the bottom? At the bottom of the Skywest and ACA list?

I'm not trying to start a war, just more food for thought.
 

Draginass

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I don't think it matters much what the unions want. Management isn't going to go for it, UNLESS there are concessions, which will come from the major union's contract, not the regional's union.

Secondly, inexperienced pilots that ordinarily could compete for jobs at the wholly owned subsideraries, might find that they can't compete with the more experienced military pilots that normally come directly to the major airline. The inexperienced pilots would be relegated to non-owned subsiderary airlines like Skywest, etc., then still have to compete to go to an entry level prop or RJ at a major later on, when they are competitive.

The single list idea sounds nice, but is probably not practical.

I think the real answer is for the regional unions to raise their own status/compesation up so the difference between regional and major becomes a moot point and it's more profitable NOT to run separate operations.

But that's not going to happen if ALPA stands by and lets regional unions sign crap contracts like the 20 year AE contract.
 
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FlyinBrian

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Yeah, and as crappy as AE's contract is, the company violates it whenever it suits them. The pilots file a greivance, which goes through the "appropriate channels", and in the meantime the pilots get screwed... But I suppose that's for another thread.
 

skydiverdriver

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Draginass,
I think the onelist proposal is the only way to solve this problem. You say that the regionals should fight for their rights, and bring up their pay and work rules. I agree. I also just spent three months this summer on strike with Comair, which is my fourth airline and was the most unified group I have ever seen. We did our best, and were given another "regional industry standard" contract. What more could we have done? We got little support from ALPA national and other interested parties, which is why, I believe, we didn't meet our goals. I also think we would not have had to strike if Delta had not purchased Comair, which is another story. As far as newer pilots having to compete with military pilots, I see this as a non-problem. We have plenty of military guys at Comair, as they like to hire a mix of experience levels. We also hire low time people from our academy and other sources and that should continue. I think the onelist idea is the only way to solve the scope vs alter-ego airline problem. Also, the new merged majors would get scope clauses that limit the contract flying. So, if the airline wished to expand beyond the scope boundries, they would have to purchase and merge another airline, or just expand from within.

As far as the regional pilots who wish to stay and have more furlough protection, perhaps there could be two tracks. You could choose the major track, where you are able to bid up to the larger aircraft and perhaps be furloughed, or stay in the small jet track, and have more furlough progtection. Just an idea I was thinking about recently. Good luck to all.
 
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