MCBA thoughts

Imissmypilot

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My first thoughts on thumbing through the mcba (I'll start a new thread for discussion) is that this looks like a huge win for the Flops team. However I am flummoxed by the huge pay disparity between the fixed schedules and the PBS. When calculated the daily rates are hundred or more apart. That makes no sense. I was hoping to transition to a fixed and there is no way in hell I'd do that now. It's just one more lopsided advantage to the Red Label crews. Know your schedule months in advance, get all holidays off and still make $200 more a day than me.
What jumped out as your very first impressions?

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Overnight Flops guys got huge pay raises, gained twice as much pto, won parking.

Flex guys got a small bump in overall perdiem, lost pay if going to a fixed, and gained some additional preferred crew bases as related to bidding only.
 

Club ORD FO

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What jumped out as your very first impressions?

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Overnight Flops guys got huge pay raises, gained twice as much pto, won parking.

Flex guys got a small bump in overall perdiem, lost pay if going to a fixed, and gained some additional preferred crew bases as related to bidding only.
I need to dig into the detail, but first impression I'm disappointed with some stuff but overall I'm ok with it. We kept things the company was trying to take away (overtime, parking) and we didn't slide backwards in pay or schedules like many had feared. Section 6 is going to be a long road.
 

Imissmypilot

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Company and arbitrator screwed us
Like I said in the other thread I think it's important to track what the union offered to us as their proposals and the final mcba. If there was anything fair or "arbitrated" about this contract than the company must have tried to really **** us over.

If the company does not feel they tried to **** us over than the discrepancies are just more proof toward collusion since it would appear they received a moderated result.

While I am currently still pissed at the union my first glance is this is a PR nightmare for the company, even with Red Label pilots, especially those on the waiting list.

Geeesh. This thing is crazy.

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I need to dig into the detail, but first impression I'm disappointed with some stuff but overall I'm ok with it. We kept things the company was trying to take away (overtime, parking) and we didn't slide backwards in pay or schedules like many had feared. Section 6 is going to be a long road.
I beg to differ on the schedules. Sure we kept PBS but more than half of us will be forced to a fixed bid and lose wild amounts of pay.

PBS only matters if you can keep it. Sorry friend but you and I are both to junior now to not be screwed (if we can maintain Captain status which I doubt we can) but as FO's our PBS desire is safe.
 

Imissmypilot

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What is the huge pay raise for FO?
On the new ISL you guys will now dominate on the PBS. That's at least 100 more per day and then some.

Guys like me will end up forced to fixed and lose significant amounts of pay but I'm not in a place to run all my numbers.
 

Club ORD FO

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I agree that fixed schedule appears to be a pay cut. But can you be forced onto it? I'm gettting a headache reading the scheduling section. It says the company can offer fixed to up to 25% of the pilots in a seat. 19.3a2 says "there shall be no involuntary assignments to the 7/7". (What about the 8/7?). So is being forced into fixed a concern? Do you see where that is spelled out?
 

Club ORD FO

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I need to dig into the detail, but first impression I'm disappointed with some stuff but overall I'm ok with it. We kept things the company was trying to take away (overtime, parking) and we didn't slide backwards in pay or schedules like many had feared. Section 6 is going to be a long road.
I might have been wrong on part of this. If you are a regular captain line pilot flying a red label airplane, you'll earn red label pay if the red label captain you are flying with is junior to you. But if you're just with a regular FO you'll get your normal rate. 27.9a
 

Imissmypilot

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challenger 300 captains will get red label pay when they fly on a red label airplane. Plus a three percent raise in January (why only a raise in that one fleet?). Everyone gets a one time bonus in January. otherwise pay looks the same?
It jumps around but the way I'm reading it by January essentially all CL30 captains will be red label due to fleet transition and new acquisition. It looks like the company wanted to secure the loyalty of the sycophants and punish everyone else.
 

Imissmypilot

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Section 19 implies Red Label pilots can only crew Red Label airplanes. Oops

Additionally, 19.8 implies we get home in 13.59 or we get an extra day of pay. I know it was typos that make it this way but it is what it is. Looks like JW ****ed up when he wrote it. Additionally, it looks like there is no exclusion on pay for your credited day after a 1200 arrival on your first day. So if your airline gets you in after 14:01, decline, reschedule and get 3 days of pay for their mistake. Oh **** uncle will not be happy. Last days should be what they should be for the first time in years.
 

Club ORD FO

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Other things I'm finding/not finding:

- No voluntary or forced overtime difference. Either pays 1.5. 27.2b
- no holiday pay?
- we still get overtime, and triple after 14
- 30 minute shut downs (reduced from 60)
- 90 min show for airlines.
- limit of 14 hours (no more last day to 16)
- 19.8. If you get home later than 0130 you still an extended day pay (daily rate X1.5) (not midnight). If you get home past noon on your first day off you get the extra day pay plus the first day of your next rotation off with pay. If you go over 16 hours on your last day (voluntarily over 14), you get an extended days pay.

Any corrections to that list so far?

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Section 19 implies Red Label pilots can only crew Red Label airplanes.

Where do you see that?
 

1folinepilot

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A couple of items that jumped out at me were the following.

1 the obscene pay differences beween red label and non red label fleets. What does a RL captain do that a non RL captain doesn't already do?

2. The pay difference between the PBS schedule and the 8-7/7-7 schedule. The only way a small cabin guy can make any more money is by going onto a PBS schedule and if you are not in the top 20% of the bid you get to work the scraps, weekends and holidays

3. There is no bypass or virtual bid pay. So if you are an Options guy it will be years before any bids are open for open seats in a mid or large cabin aircraft because MGT has allready overfilled the seats with Junior flex guys.

4. The signing bonus is only 4% of you made less than 90k, 3% for 91k to 120k and 2% for over 120 and no back pay

5. The IRL guys are exempt from seniority and layoffs and it is strictly interview to get into that club

6. The DRL is still not all of the fleet but only 30 some odd percent so why not open the club up and put all of the airplanes in the DRL fleet since everybody does the same job, flies to the same standards and provides the same service while being dispatched and maintained by the same company

7, Looks like the Options guys are subsidizing the RL guys by being stuck with below industry standard wages.
 

FTITA

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Other things I'm finding/not finding:

- No voluntary or forced overtime difference. Either pays 1.5. 27.2b
- no holiday pay?
- we still get overtime, and triple after 14
- 30 minute shut downs (reduced from 60)
- 90 min show for airlines.
- limit of 14 hours (no more last day to 16)
- 19.8. If you get home later than 0130 you still an extended day pay (daily rate X1.5) (not midnight). If you get home past noon on your first day off you get the extra day pay plus the first day of your next rotation off with pay. If you go over 16 hours on your last day (voluntarily over 14), you get an extended days pay.

Any corrections to that list so far?

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Where do you see that?
In response to the 19.8 section. Nowhere does it say you get the first day of your next rotation off WITH PAY. It only says "relieved," it is implied but not stated that it is with pay and seems like a gray area that is waiting to be exploited. Unless you're on the fixed schedule, then I suppose it would be with pay since you're salary.

The pay disparity between the fixed and PBS is absurd.
 

Imissmypilot

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It's interesting how perspective is colored by situation.

1FOlinepilot, #3 might be true for Phenom pilots due to seat locks but for all the legacy and x guys just informed of their Fleet shutdowns there is nothing preventing them from now joining the Red Label list and sliding down Flex pilots who have been waiting for the next slot for a year or more.

If I were a current non Phenom flops guy I would email RH and get on the DRL list immediately. The MCBA is in force and I am reading nothing that prevents it.

If I were a transfer pilot I'd demand proper placement.

The company intended to **** us. It's time to use the mcba mistakes to our collective advantage to have them beg for section 6 to wrap up quickly.

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Club- the red label is implied by on mission. The language implies red label pilots work strictly for the red label program. Since there is no exclusion, they can't be placed in regular fleets.

Additionally I can guarantee you the overtime mistakes will work to our advantage and we're unintended.
 

jetwash

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One thing I know for sure is that there are going to be a lot of pi$$ed off pilots :angryfire going to work tomorrow and in the coming days and weeks.
Just in time for the holiday season.
 

Imissmypilot

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Club go read the preamble. It appears the arbitrator intent was red label can only crew red label aircraft whereas the program can utilize line pilots as necessary.
 

1folinepilot

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It looks like L$'s freebie seam period days were eliminated! Thats easily a 2k bonus of extra days we don't have to work for free any more ( but she was kind enough to thank you for you understanding )
 
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1folinepilot

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What happens to all of the transfer pilots who were pay protected copilots that were passed over when MGT hastily upgraded the junior Flex guys?
 

el raton

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In all honesty, the IBT will become the least of Ricci’s worries. He’s going to be fighting a new stronger enemy now....his need for pilots.
Note to 1108 negotiators... concentrate mainly on hiring minimums as if they’re the Holy Grail.
 

Imissmypilot

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I get confused because in proposals by the UNion it looks like they were trying to cut out all bonuses. It looks like the company came up with money for that? It also looks like all VF did was get himself and the guys in his fleet a bonus. What about the rest of us? Flying the same weight category but get nothing?

27.7 Challenger 300 Pay Increase
27.7(a) On January 1, 2018, the Challenger 300 Captain salary or day rate (non Red Label) will be increased by 3%. This adjustment will have no effect on any other salary or day rate tables.

I think the whole board screwed us

FLFlyer1 we have union proposals we can look at to see the overarching goal regarding compensation was to make it fair across the board (based on weight like the airlines) and steady (no bonuses). The fact the 300 group and them alone got a meager raise is not anywhere in the union proposals and a company tactic you just fell for. Additionally it looks like it might be a plan they never have to pay out on if you look deeper into the crystal ball.

So your company chairman seeks to illegally and unethically stack the deck by wining and dining our arbitrator in Cabo and Scottsdale in a one on one meeting (despite insistence he would not be involved in negotiations) and you want to blame this instead on the one guy (VF) who gave up countless thankless hours fighting for you, just so you could he dumb enough to not see through the company ruse behind the CL30 increase?

The more I read it, this whole mcba is a pig. It looks like the union didn't get a single real thing from their proposals. The only thing the pilots got were a few red herrings so the arbritrator could claim impartiality and some language mistakes we can use to our advantage.

Make no mistake the company ****ed us through and through and the blame lies solely on them.

Pre mcba we could only get non jet, non ATP low hour new hires who wouldn't even show up for day 2. What do you think we will get now?

Our only hope is to use the hiring crisis and those language mistakes in the mcba to our advantage land force section 6.

It will require unity and sacrifice. Do not accept anything that takes you over 14. Period. Even if that means a hotel on a delayed connecting flight on your go home day. Do not accept last legs even with owners sitting there if it takes you a second over. Realize the half hour shut down especially on swap days might unfortunately result in more missed prep and maintenance items that could push the duty day forward. In other words be purely professional and do not do favors that allow management to keep us running on overtime days and short staff.

When they can't hire and supplemental lift goes nuts maybe they'll get the message Kenn Ricci's childish vendetta is running them into the ground and Silvestro, Salata or someone with enough sense and balls will put an end to this mess (do not look for that to be JW).

You should be pissed but not at VF. If anything you owe him an apology for smearing his sacrifice with your less than reasoned reaction.

Remember in Ricci's world you are either FoK or SOL. The slots at his feet are already taken. So you really just have one shot now (and fortunately or unfortunately depending on your perspective) the Teamsters are it. It's time to shut the asshats crying decert down and get to work on the unity required to turn this pig into bacon.
 
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