Logging Time

[FlyGirlFelicia]

Does anyone have any useful (and please be serious) ideas on how to log hours between private pilot and 1st airline application (going through the usual Instr., Comm. & Multi) other than the "pay for it yourself" route? Is the only way to gain your hours ultimately through a CFI position? How many of you pro's were CFI's?
Any ideas/help is greatly appreciated.....

-Felicia

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

I can think of plenty of ways for a young lady to build hours...





























































Crop dusting is one

 

[pilotman2105]

Does anyone have any useful (and please be serious) ideas on how to log hours between private pilot and 1st airline application (going through the usual Instr., Comm. & Multi) other than the "pay for it yourself" route? Is the only way to gain your hours ultimately through a CFI position? How many of you pro's were CFI's?
Any ideas/help is greatly appreciated.....

-Felicia

While I'm not a "pro" of sorts, there are many on the board of the opinion that instructing provides you with more insight than the "general" knowledge that you gain in just getting the pilot certificates. While instructing may not appeal to you, it does have some added educational benefit.

On the flip side, there are others on the board that think you should HAVE to flight instruct if you don't want to. As a matter of fact, you're doing the rest of the pilot-wanna-be's around a favor by NOT instructing if you're only there to build hours.

There are other options with the commercial certificate, such as flying parachuters, pipeline patrol, check-hauling (unless that is going to be a dinosaur in the near future), or Alaska bush flying. However, I think that in more cases than not, you'll find that while it does provide you with a different perspective, it doesn't get you to your goal as quickly.

Again, this is simply my $0.02. Maybe some "old salts" will chime in here.

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

I am assuming that you are asking about how one goes from being a Private Pilot, to the point that you can be somewhat competitive for an airline of some sort (I assume you are talking regionals).

Basically, either you have to pay for it, or someone else does. That someone else is very, very difficult to find. Nobody is just going to give you the money to fly 1,200 hours. You are really going to need 1,500 hours to be sending in those applications, and that is just a start. The cost of going from 50 hours to 1500 is far more expensive than any single person can foot the bill for.

Basically, the easiest way to get someone else to pay for that time is to get a job flying. The problem is getting that job. Hauling freight? That is basically going to require 1,200 hours (read 135.243(c)). Alaska? Most folks up in the great white north have a bit more than the FAA's required 250 hours for a commercial pilot, and even to do VFR 135 you need 500 hours. And that is what the government says you need, most folks have twice that for a starting point.

So while it MAY be possible to find a job as a pilot with 250 hours, it is HIGHLY unlikely, aside from being a flight instructor. How many pipelines need patrolling in your area? How many sky diving airplanes are out there? These opportunities exist, but there are VASTLY more airplanes giving flight instruction out there.

Basically, it is quite possible to build hours without a CFI. I know people who have done it, but they all had to pay for every hour until they got to 500 hours, and then they were able to find a VFR 135 job. Paying for 250 hours--that's about $25,000 lately, maybe as low as 18 grand.

I liked flight instruction. It was a LOT of fun, and it certaintly matured me as a pilot. I had my first engine failure, had LOTS of bad landings, started learning the intricacies of airplanes, learned a bit about having my paycheck/dinner table tied directly to flying, and made and awful lot of very good friends. I left because I was working for a scumbag and was paid criminally low wages. I would go back to flight instructing in a heartbeat, if the right situation presented itself. Don't discount it. But don't give flight instruction for the sole purpose of getting the hours in your logbook to move on. If that is all that you get out of it--then you are indeed doing the world a disservice.

Dan

PS-I assume you realize that the government pays for a lot of people's flight training... They are the biggest "someone else" out there.

 

[FlyGirlFelicia]

Being a CFI

Well,
Don't get me wrong, I am just curious as to who on this board may have gone another route. I think being a CFI would be a lot of fun, I'm in aviation training as a 9-5 job during the week. I'm just not sure at this point (and it's an early point at that) if I am cut out for the CFI job. How does one KNOW, at what point does that become clear? It's still pretty new to me, so I can't imagine teaching all of this PLUS the other stuff that comes along with it.

I sure wouldn't want a CFI who was only out for the hours, and I would never dream of attempting it just to log time. But thanks for all the points of view.

I have a friend on the east coast who somehow got a deal going with one of the aircraft owners at his airport to trade flight time for yard work! He treats the plane as if it were his own. OMG I wish! Guess I need to start a bikini carwash, or rather airplane wash...J/K.

-Felicia

 

[FlyGirlFelicia]

Dan

Dan,

You said: "PS-I assume you realize that the government pays for a lot of people's flight training... They are the biggest "someone else" out there."

Do you know of any resources in particular?

Thanks!

 

[0.25 Mach CFI]

We must see a picture first to determine if the "bikini airplane wash" would be successful. Please provide for further advice.


Peace.

 

[avbug]

While a lot of entry level jobs exist out there (including airline positions), ag (crop dusting) isn't among them.

Don't build hours. Build experience. The numbers you put in your logbook are the same, but the attitude you take while putting those numbers there is very different. Look at each hour you fly as an hour of experience. If you want to log hours, then falsify them. Fraudulently put them in your logook and go get a job. A lot of pilots have done it. You won't be worth jack **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** as a pilot, but you'll probably get a job and be just dangerous enough to hurt yourself and kill your passengers.

Conversely, you must learn to walk before you run, and you have got to crawl before that. Trying to skip a level is a fools errand. Build your experience in whatever way you can; flight instructing is an excellent paying format to do that, but there are many others. Flying skydivers, flying searches for CAP, and so forth.

Years ago I met a young gentleman in an airline interview. He was a sharp kid, going for his first interview, and his first job in a multi engine airplane. He got hired. He had gained all his experience, from before he had a commercial certificate, in antique biplanes. He was attending a school for his conventional gear signoff, and met up with another gentleman who was there doing some other training.

That other gentleman owned a collection of older and newer biplanes. He was so taken with the attitude of this young man that he loaned him a cub, and sent him on his way to do a little learning in it. As soon as the boy had his certificate, he went to work for this gentleman, giving scenic rides and later instruction in the airlplanes. That young man wasn't building hours, but he gained a wealth of experience.

There is no need to be a flight instructor, but it's certainly a privilege. I seldom get to instruct formally, though I enjoy the hell out of it. Don't knock it until you've had the opportunity.

Look at it realistically. Presently, you've got nothing to offer to a potential employer of the type you desire. You're not qualified, and you don't have the experience. You need the experience. In an age when everybody gets out of school and wants it all now, the simple truth is that you can't have it all now. You need to build up your experience in steps...and that means accepting what work you can find at this stage in your career.

I've been through a lot of interviews over the years, probably like many others here. Most of them involve a chance to arrive the night before, and often converse with others who are interviewing. It's a rare pilot that doesn't show up for an interview who doesn't hold or hasn't held a flight instructor certificate. The one exception are pilots coming from the military, and often a number of those have held an Instructor Pilot qualification as well. Those who haven't, have missed out.

Traffic watch positions are to be found in most big cities. Brine shrimp patrol, or fish spotting are around. All sorts of options. But honestly, probably your best bet is to locate an instructing position in an operation that moves it's folks into the charter department. You have a path and a place to go.

Movement in the industry is slow. The truth is that you can't have it all right now. All the schools and the certificate mills would like people to believe so, because that's how they get people in the door. Come, be a pilot, go fly for the airlines, be home 27 days a month and make a quarter of a million dollars a year. All within two years of the day you start our program. But the truth is, it doesn't really happen like that. It really takes three years.

Seriously...bide your time. Take what opportunities come along. Remember that even if you prefer not to instruct (and I'd strongly encourage you not to do so if it's not something you'll enjoy), having the instructor certificate is still a plus on your resume. Think of it this way; when you're trying to be competitive, you want to be more qualified than the next person. If every other competitor has college and all the basic ratings and instructor qualifications, then you should try to do the same. You'll probably not use that college degree, but it certainly holds you back competitively if you don't have it. You'll probably not use the instructor certificate when seeking a corporate or airline job later...but it still helps to have it. Don't neglect obtaining it.

Another point to consider in your quest is that if you do find that you can live with the lowly office of flight instructor (there is no higher office than that of teacher...and there's a difference between teaching and instructing), you stand to make contacts in your instructing. Those contacts may be the people who help you obtain your next job. You'll find few other flying jobs that let you met such a wide variety of people, and keep you at the airport as much and as long as full time flight instructing. One more reason to consider that as a very viable option.

Build experience, not hours. Don't overlook opportunities, even if it's the road every one else is taking (eg, flight instructing). Don't get discouraged when things don't happen over night. Many of us were ten years or more in the industry before we tasted something aside from noodles and jello on a regular basis, and longer before we smelled kerosine outside of a diesel truck. Chin up...and remember. Every day older is one day closer to death.

 

[bobbysamd]

Entry-level pilot employment

The long and short of it is that flight instructing is the easiest, and most available, entry-level flying job around. Yes, there are the lucky ones who get some kind of non-instructing pilot job at 250 hours, but those jobs, and those people, are few and far between.

I still don't understand why so many new pilots are so dead set against flight instructing. Could it be that they doubt their abilities to teach others?? Could it be that after having fun during training with their hands on the controls virtually every hour that they cannot accept not doing much actual flying for a while?? Could it be that flight instructing actually means working?? (Perish the thought!!) Could it be that they feel that teaching others to fly is beneath them, with the underlying issue being that those who taught them to fly are also beneath them??

The odd thing about it all is that so many who initially refuse to instruct end up spending more money for CFI credentials when they find, unexpectedly for them, that with their 250 hours no one is beating a path to their doors.

After 3549 hours of instructing I will say that it wasn't always fun. No job is always fun - but seeing others build their skills and advance under one's mentoring and tutelage was always satisfying.

As a practical matter, instructing is the easiest job to get out of training. Your school might even hire you to instruct upon graduation, so you could have a job waiting for you when you finish instead of you having to forage around for work. And, no one says you have to instruct forever.

It's all about being practical - and attitude.

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

"You said: "PS-I assume you realize that the government pays for a lot of people's flight training... They are the biggest "someone else" out there."

Do you know of any resources in particular?"


I was referring to our uniformed services. Take a walk to your local recruiter and they can tell you a lot more than I could. All I know about military aviation is that even I know that only the flight lead should be squawking anything--why do I daily hear a reminder to a flight to have his wingman stop squawking?

That, and I wonder how on earth they know which plane they are flying? Aside from those little serial numbers on the tail they all are painted the same Our multicolored airplanes make it easy to find the right one to preflight

Dan