Logging Sim time

asolo

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Quick Question: I have about 18 hours in a Frasca 142. The way I understand it is that I can only log Dual time and Simulator time. However, one of my fellow instructors says you can log it simulated instrument. If this is true, does this also count towards the 100 instrument hours that the airlines require? THanks

Blue SKies,

Asolo
 

skiddriver

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It depends on the company. Some allow you to add simulated instrument time from a simulator into your total simulated time amount, some don't. It was pretty explicitly spelled out on the applications I filled out. If in doubt, leave it out (or call HR and ask).

Your compadre is probably thinking of the FAA accepting FTD or Simulator time for some ratings. The max amount to be used and the simulator requirements are spelled out in Part 61. You can log the time as simulated instrument time, but be sure and keep it segregated from your "in-aircraft" flight time. I'd keep it in a separate logbook, or a separate section of your logbook. Don't add it to your total time in your logbook!!!!!

BTW, unless your Frasca meets the definition in FAR 61.1.b.5, it's really a flight training device vice a simulator. Once again, if the application says simulator, I'd ask before putting down FTD time. Not that it's not valid simulated instrument time, but you don't want to be caught "out of school" on the big day. A simple question to HR like, "Umm, can I add in my simulated instrument time from my school's Frasca 142?" will clarify things for you.

Good luck
 

flyflorida2001

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I need to go back and check my FAR's (don't have them with me right now)...BUT...as I recall, FTD time (like a Frasca) cannot be counted as DUAL flight instruction. The approaches count, and the sim time counts, but it is not dual recieved...again, I'd need to go back in there and find the specific reg. but I believe that that is in there somewhere.
 

transpac

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In the eyes of the FAA, a Frasca 142 is not a simulator. If the operator jumped through all the FAA hoops, it would probably be a Level 3 FTD.
 

midlifeflyer

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flyflorida2001 said:
I need to go back and check my FAR's (don't have them with me right now)...BUT...as I recall, FTD time (like a Frasca) cannot be counted as DUAL flight instruction.
You may log dual time in an FTD. It's "flight time" that you can't log in a sim or FTD. (And you probably want to avoid using any column that does total a flight time category)

Like all logging questions it's in 61.51. In this case subparagraph (h):

(h) Logging training time.
(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
 

JeffSKDTW

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transpac said:
In the eyes of the FAA, a Frasca 142 is not a simulator. If the operator jumped through all the FAA hoops, it would probably be a Level 3 FTD.
However, just to be clear, a Frasca 142 ~is~ considered a FTD and time therein is loggable.

Specifically, the time spent in a Frasca 142 can be logged under:

Flight Training Device/Simulator

Dual Received


Excerpt from FAA FAQs maintained by John Lynch:

QUESTION: Don't have a specific example, but can you give me the low down on how flight simulator and flight training device time can be logged (flight time, pic, sic, night, x-c, etc.) in a persons log book.



ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51(b)(1)(iv), (b)(3)(iii), (g)(4), and (h)(1) and § 61.51(a)(1) and (2); Keep in mind that logging time is only required for the purposes stated in § 61.51(a)(1) and (2), i.e., experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review and meeting the recent flight experience requirements.



I also direct you to the definition of “flight training” as per § 61.1(b)(6) which states: “Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.” (Emphasis added: “in flight in an aircraft”). Furthermore, § 61.51(h)(1) addresses logging of training time as “A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.”



However, time in a flight simulator or flight training device cannot be logged as “flight time” or as “PIC flight time” or as “SIC time” or as “night time” or as “daytime” or as “cross-country time” or as time in an “aircraft category, class, or type.” Time in a flight simulator or flight training device can only be logged in the columns noted as “Flight Simulator or Flight Training Device” time and “Dual Received” time. And in most logbooks, the person has to write in the notation “FS/FTD” as a heading on one of the extra columns. And in some logbooks they do have a column noted as “Synthetic Trainer.”



The FARs specifically permit time in a flight simulator or flight training device can be credited in lieu of the required flight time towards meeting the total aeronautical experience or recency of experience. [See § 61.57(c)(1) and (d)(1)(ii), § 61.58(e), § 61.65(e), § 61.109(i), § 61.129(i), § 61.157(i), § 61.187(c)(2), etc.] However, this is not flight time and cannot be logged as flight time. For example, an ATP applicant with 1,475 hours total time as a pilot in aircraft that includes at least 500 hours cross-country and 100 hours night, but only 50 hours instrument flight time would meet minimum aeronautical experience using 25 hours instrument training in a flight simulator or flight training device (FTD) in accordance with § 61.156(a)(3)(iii). Though the 25 hours in the sim/FTD can not logged as flight time, it may be used in lieu of flight time for the minimum aeronautical experience requirement of 1,500 hours total time. But, this is only because it is allowed under § 61.156(a)(3)(iii).



Now, the way it would be interpreted and should be logged on the FAA Form 8710-1 application is to list the time in the “Instruction Received” and “Instrument” columns and in the line for “Training Device” or “Simulator” in the appropriate boxes. When the time is computed to insure the applicant meets the appropriate aeronautical experience requirements for the airman certificate and rating sought, the time listed in the “Instruction Received” column and “Training Device” or “Simulator” boxes, as appropriate, would be accepted in lieu of the required flight time experience required to the limit allowed, as in the example above.

{Q&A-320}
 

transpac

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JeffSKDTW said:
However, just to be clear, a Frasca 142 ~is~ considered a FTD and time therein is loggable.

Specifically, the time spent in a Frasca 142 can be logged under:

Flight Training Device/Simulator

Dual Received
Absolutely correct, but with one big caveat: Unless the device holds a current FAA qualification as a FTD, it is a considered a training aid, not a FTD. Time spent in an unqualified device cannot be substituted for airplane time.
 

jobear

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no **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** delete button
 

jobear

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old one ehh?
 

avbug

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There is no airline minimum. Refer to any particular single employer, and then refer to actual competitive minimums with respect to other applicants.

Simulator experience and FTD experience should be kept in it's own column and not added to any other column. If you show it as instruction received ("dual") in your logbook, don't include it in the totals at the bottom of the page.

Your total time should be the sum of instruction received, pilot-in-command, and second-in-command. If you total your "simulator" or "flight training device" experience under instruction received (but not your total flight time), then the numbers won't add up. This can only add unnecessary confusion.

Don't try to "build time" using a simulator or FTD. Keep it in it's own column, and don't apply the totals obtained from this experience to any other experience.

You needn't tally it under any other experience to count toward any certificate or rating, or recency of experience. Sometimes pilots feel that if they're using that simulator or FTD time toward a certificate or rating, it must be reflected in the total hours, or some other column in their logbook. This isn't the case. For example, one who is attempting to use three hours of FTD time toward a private pilot certificate, for example, might suppose that a total of 40 hours of experience must be shown to meet the requirements of 14 CFR 61.109(a). One attempting to use 2.5 hours of FTD time toward this 40 hour requirement, as permitted by 61.109(i)(1) might suppose that the 2.5 hours of FTD time must be shown in the totals. This isn't true.

An applicant in this case may show only 37.5 hours total time in the logbook, and still meet the requirements of 61.109, so long as a record is maintained in the logbook of the FTD experience and training. That is, it needn't be included in any other column of the logbook totals to meet the requirements of 61.109. So long as a record exists, one need not show a total of 40 hours, as the Administrator considers the total flight time plus the FTD without respect to inclusion in any other total.

You needn't show your simulator or FTD as any other total in the log, and may still have your logs balance.

Attempting to show your simulator or FTD training in any other column in your logbook looks a little to eager, and doesn't pass the smell test. It looks as though you're trying to pad your logbook...which in fact you're doing when you try to fall back on simulator time to meet any minimum.

You're far better off if you're trying to scrape by at some minimum time to go get the experience, and then check back. Your true experience level is going to show up during a flight or sim check anyway, so don't try to pad your logs. Have the skill and ability, and show that as your experience...not a passle of hours written up on a desk top flight training device.
 

kclark

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asolo said:
Quick Question: I have about 18 hours in a Frasca 142. The way I understand it is that I can only log Dual time and Simulator time. However, one of my fellow instructors says you can log it simulated instrument. If this is true, does this also count towards the 100 instrument hours that the airlines require? THanks

Blue SKies,

Asolo
To log simulated instrument time the FTD must be level 3 qualifed. Frasca's are not, but the Vector Piper Warrior FTD are. However, the FAA where I am located allows us to use Frasca 142's to get instrument current.


In the beginning of part 61 there are definitions for FTD and a simulator. Simluators basically move, while FTD's are stationary.
 
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