Lets talk about Eagle / AA integration

~~~^~~~

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Posts
6,137
Total Time
7,500+
The rest of the industry is watching to see how APA and ALPA might be able to come together to resolve the scope and alter ego problem.

Has ALPA made any response to the APA's announcement? Anyone have a feel for whether ALPA supports one list on the property?

My thoughts are that the plan is very workable if stage III becomes stage I. If you integrate the lists first then everything else flows into place:
(1) One list = one MEC and one union political structure
(2) One list means that the company can acquire the right sized aircraft without limitation - promoting growth and competitive advantage. More RJ's making money means less furloughs. Also since the RJ is a smaller unit - more pilots are needed to proide the same revenue seat miles.
(3) One list means all pilots will support the necessary contract negotiations with the company
(4) Aircraft assignments and recalls will happen automatically under one list - people bid for the openings they can hold.

Without one list, I doubt there is the political will to get this integration done. Under a staged plan, each group will lose interest once they get what they want.

However, the APA is headed in the right direction. I am optimistic that mainline pilots finally realize that RJ's are in fact replacements for narrowbody domestic jets and that these aircraft should be operated by American Airlines pilots. This should and will grow to include all pilots flying American passengers. All American flying by American pilots is a great goal and will bring together your pilots.
 

StaySeated

IBT does not represent ME
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
782
Total Time
10500
One list.

I agree with some of your points, however I think that it would be impossible to combine lists while pilots are furloughed. How could you integrate aa, ae, and twa while each has furloughed pilots? Phase 3 is the last step because it assumes everyone is back on property.
 

EagleRJ

Are we there yet?
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
1,490
Total Time
5800
I think the issues the APA and the Eagle MEC have to work out pale in comparison to the problem of convincing management. This proposal could work very well for each party concerned, but I'm sure management will be reluctant to agree to any plan as profound as this that has been conjured by the pilots. There will be the underlying suspicion that we are up to something.

The main reason the company might oppose this plan in general is due to the fact that it will place all of their remaining eggs in the same basket. It's evident they want to diversify their regional feed, even though a strike at Eagle isn't a threat until 2013. Approving Onelist would mean that any labor problems would ground the entire operation. It also would eliminate their whipsaw tactic that they are so adept at using to control labor. Management has said already that they can't afford to pay AA wages to crew an RJ, even though they already negotiated rates for AA's TA that weren't much above other regionals that recently had increases.
On the other hand, the plan would make AMR the most cost-effective airline in the world, since they would be able to put the right equipment in the right market without worrying about Scope. It would also make this the most desirable career airline, ending recruiting and attrition problems, and there's no question it would make all the employee groups happier in general. I'm sure there would be massive cost savings in consolidating the two operations into one, also.

As for making the list integration Phase I instead of Phase III, I don't think it matters as long as the completion of all three phases is assured by contract. If the Eagle pilots are brought over before all AA's furloughees are back off the street, fences would obviously be set up to protect their seniority. I'm sure there would be squabbles over seniority, but hopefully nothing that would endanger the agreement. The party to watch now is Management. The ball is in their court now, and they still haven't issued an official reaction, which is promising. If they can see the possibilities here and approach APA and ALPA with an open mind, AMR might have an exciting future!
 

publisher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
592
Total Time
20,000
simple

There is little to no chance of this being implemented.

To think that this is only a pilot issue is just too simple. It also assumes that regional feeders only compete in like manner, as feeders.

The addition of the rj has meant many point to point markets are now competitive between regionals and feed has nothing to do with it. In addition, there is no way that after Comair, everyone is making sure they will not be held hostage by their having a single source of regional feed.

There are many reasons that mainline carriers have chosen to have regional affiliates rather than just doing it themselves. To make this a pilot issue only is entirely an oversimplication of a complicated issue.
 

EagleRJ

Are we there yet?
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
1,490
Total Time
5800
Update as of Thursday evening. The APA just held a meeting with AMR management, and their response was, in a word, no. That's OK. No one thought they would accept it out of the box. This is just the beginning of what is sure to be a long process.
 

surplus1

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Posts
5,649
Total Time
25K+
Re: The APA proposal.

Please read the fine print lest the Eagle pilots become a modern version of Don Quijote.

The devil is in the details gentlemen and this smacks of fools gold for Eagle pilots.

Caveat Emptor.
 

Cardinal

Of The Kremlin
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
2,308
Total Time
K's
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/26/business/26AMR.html?ex=1012712400&en=d4b0602b3055c6a0&ei=5040&partner=MOREOVER
January 26, 2002

AMR Rejects Pilot Request on Regional Jets
By BLOOMBERG NEWS

FORT WORTH, Jan. 25 — The AMR Corporation (news/quote) rejected a proposal today from its American Airlines pilots to shift the flying of regional jets from its commuter unit, American Eagle, to American Airlines. AMR said the plan was not financially sound.

The proposal from the Allied Pilots Association came after American, the largest carrier, asked pilots to waive a contract provision limiting growth at the American Eagle unit.

AMR wants to expand its use of regional jets, aircraft that are less expensive to operate than larger jetliners and can fly farther than turboprops, to feed passengers to American Airlines. The pilots want to keep the growth restrictions on American Eagle as long as some American pilots remain laid off as a result of the steepened decline in travel since the Sept. 11 hijackings.

"We told them it wasn't economically feasible," an American spokeswoman, Karen Watson, said. "The cost structures of the two are very different."

The pilots union criticized the company for dismissing its three-phase proposal instead of negotiating specific terms or trying to reach a compromise on a short-term solution.

"The specific cost structure under which these aircraft would be flown by our pilots would have been a negotiable item had management wished to pursue discussions," a union spokesman, Gregg Overman, said in a recorded message to pilots.
___________________________

WTF, Over? Now both AMR and USAir have flatly rejected any alterations to the status quo. As Overman said above, "Duh, management, uh, this is negotiable, ya know?" And thank you Miss Watson for that insight on a difference in cost-structure. No ####. Management pleads that they have to workaround existing contracts to better utilize SJs, but they are unwilling to even discuss offering something in return.
 

Cardinal

Of The Kremlin
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
2,308
Total Time
K's
The applicable part of the union news update:


This is Gregg Overman, APA Director of Communications, with the
APA Information Hotline for Thursday, January 24.


As you know, last week APA’s Negotiating Committee made a
proposal to management that addressed management’s stated need to
preserve commuter feed to American Airlines and keep the
airline’s recovery going strong. Today, management indicated to
our negotiators that it is not interested in exploring the
concept that we put forth. Rather than providing a counter
proposal to APA’s proposal, management simply said that there was
“no way to work with our proposal.”


Management further indicated that they do not consider it
feasible for the aircraft that American Eagle currently flies to
be flown under American Airlines’ cost structure. To put this
statement in its proper context, please bear in mind that APA’s
Negotiating Committee and management’s negotiators never
discussed any specific rates of pay or other cost considerations.
In other words, the specific cost structure under which these
aircraft would be flown by our pilots would have been a
negotiable item had management wished to pursue discussions.


Management also cited the need for an immediate solution to the
ASM and block-hour caps in force on Eagle’s operations while
American Airlines pilots are on furlough. Once again, had
management agreed to engage in vigorous bargaining with APA to
craft a solution that meets the needs of both parties, near-term
relief could likely have been accomplished within the framework
of a broader solution.


During today’s meeting with management, it was also clear that
management views the contract extension that our members voted
down in the fall of 2000 as an indication that our two parties
cannot come to an agreement on the commuter affiliate issue. As
you will recall, the contract extension included a hybrid
approach to flying regional jets, with American Airlines pilots
flying all jets 51 seats and larger, and Eagle able to fly
300-plus 50-seat jets. Based on the outcome of the ratification
vote, our members were plainly uncomfortable with that type of
hybrid approach.


As we move forward in Section 6 negotiations, it is our hope that
management reconsiders its stance on this critical issue. For
many years, American Airlines enjoyed the reputation as an
industry innovator. We believe the time has come to resolve the
commuter feed issue once and for all and show the way for our
competition. Put another way, American Airlines is not obligated
to retain the current unsatisfactory approach to flying smaller
aircraft simply because most of the other major carriers that
make up the Air Transport Association maintain commuter
affiliates.
 

publisher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
592
Total Time
20,000
concept

It is the general concept that resulted in this failure not the specific costs.

Onelist opens a can of worms that will not be accepted easily if at all. If the concept really made sense, their would be no regional carriers at all.
 

FlyinBrian

Office Slut
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
355
Total Time
1300
AMR said the plan was not financially sound... "We told them it wasn't economically feasible," an American spokeswoman, Karen Watson, said. "The cost structures of the two are very different.
Let me run that through my Star Trek translator...

AMR said they are unwilling to pay jet pilots what they are worth... "We told them we enjoy having a divided pilot group doing our flying." an AMR spokesman, Karen Watson, said. "especially when one of the groups lacks the bargaining power to get equitable salary and work rules."
 

Draginass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
1,852
Total Time
5000+
"Worth" is the wrong word, Brian. It should read:

We're not willing to pay compensation proportional to that of mainline aircraft rates because we've got you tied to a 16 year contract that you agreed to. AND, you have no leverage to make us change it.

Who at ALPA let those guys sign that lousy contract????
 
Top