Is this Pay for Training?

Fixin2Lnd

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Is this pay for training? (PFT)
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"Multi time building"
A friend of mine just baught a Seneca II Turbo and its available for time building. The aircraft is really clean and has less than 2700TT. Its equipped with IFR GPS, RNAV, Bendix Radios, WX Radar etc.... the block is available for $140/hr and you can share it for half the price. and thats really cheap. Also if you need any multi engine ratings we have guranteed courses that will give as much flying time as need to get your rating. This plane is also great to keep your currency. contact me at brasiliajoe@yahoo.com for furter info.

$140/hr for ME-recip Part 91
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Or is this PFT?
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100 multi hrs for 5,500 bones
Wow, any of you time builders out there see this months issue of flying??

There was a add for 100hrs in a duchess for 5, 500 dollars. I cant seem to believe this, I paid 158.00 an hr in a seneca to get my multi. shessh.

Anyway, wondering if anyone has done that program at Ft.pierce?

macfly
$5500/100hrs = $55/hr for ME recip Part 91.
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Or is Gulfstream International PFT?
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$18000/250hrs = $72/hr for ME Turbine time, Part 121 Commercial Airline Experience
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$140 vs. $72 vs $55 / hr. Isn't this all "Pay for Training"? Please explain...
 

boscenter

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"Pay for Training" and "Buying Time" are two different things.

Aimlessly building time in a multi with a friend, or alone (not for hire) should be considered "buying time" and not necessarily "pay for training." (by "aimlessly" I mean not working towards any kind of rating).

But, an outfit that hires you to perform a service (such as transporting passengers), and then requires you to pay for your own training, now that's PFT.

I don't see any reason why anyone would need/want to do either of these.
 

boscenter

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The first two, I think, are instances "buying time" since you're not performing a service for anyone.

The last one is definitely PFT, since you will be performing "Part 121 Commercial Airline Experience," which is a service.
 
3

350DRIVER

Is This PFT?- What you are proposing is "renting" or giving "instruction" in an aircraft to people who are looking to "BUILD" multi-engine flight time and/or build experience .1) By doing this, Is this taking that "seat" away from a "deserving" pilot?- Clearly N O- 2) Are you doing absolutely anything to ALTER or "disrupt" hiring practices?- N O. All you are doing is "selling" block time WITHOUT effecting hiring practices,etc,etc,etc...<refer to Gulfstream posts to compare if need be on your end>
This would be comparable to going out to your local FBO and renting an airplane for a "cost/fee" which is NOT considered PFT it is merely considered paying for a service/equipment which the FBO is rendering.- As for the Gulfstream program enough has been said and it is clear what you are "BUYING",etc....- Their are plenty of threads concerning this so I won't even comment..-

PFT can and does have many meanings BUT in its most severe meaning in which upsets many IS the "taking the seat away from pilots who are "qualified" and replacing them with people who are less qualified in terms of skills BUT more qualified in the sense of being able to write a blank check- a skill Gulfstream PFTrs are exceptional at....- I see in no way shape or form that buying block time in an aircraft as in the scenario which you have proposed could be considered PFT although sure some will try and justify how it is no different than what Gulfstream is doing-go figure.

cheers-
 

Fixin2Lnd

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So the way I see it, it is purely economics. I don't understand what all the hype is about. It seems like the majors are looking for the best time available so this Gulfstream thing seems to be the best option.
 

Fixin2Lnd

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How are you taking this seat from someone else? If you want it, pay for it. Who defines who's more qualified? You? I thought the FAA gave everyone a certificate that states that they are qualified to fly AMEL. Right? I don't think you can fly at Gulfstream without one. So they are qualified. What's your point? And, to fly these other twins for $$, wouldn't you have to have a AMEL ticket as well? I still think it comes down to economics. If you have the money, and you think it will get you hired with better ME-Turbine time, then go for it. If you don't have the money, then rent something cheaper. It's all PFT, isn't it?
 

boscenter

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Fixn2Lnd,

By PFT'ing, not only do you harm the community by making it seem like an acceptable practice, but also harm yourself and your career.

Most of the pilot hiring is done by current or former pilots. So, seeing PFT like Gulfstream on your resume will definitely leave a bad taste in their mouth.
 

Fixin2Lnd

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BOSCenter post---
"By PFT'ing, not only do you harm the community by making it seem like an acceptable practice, but also harm yourself and your career.
Most of the pilot hiring is done by current or former pilots. So, seeing PFT like Gulfstream on your resume will definitely leave a bad taste in their mouth"
===
Is this your opinion or fact? Do you do airline hiring? Why is there an abundance Gulfstream guys/gals at American, United, Delta, Northwest, Southwest, etc? Do you think these pilots lied on their resumes? Don't airlines do 10 year background checks? Wouldn't they have found out that they had flown at such a "TERRIBLE" outfit and not hired them?
How is this harming the community? Am I dumping fuel?
 
3

350DRIVER

-appears that can of worms has opened....

fasten your seatbelts....this one gonna get bumpy now-
 

flydog

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No

PFT is when you whore yourself out and take a job away from a pilot that is more qualified and experienced. Typical PFT whores are 90 day 250 hr Commercial Multi wonders who spend $20,000 instead of working their way up. They bypass years of experience and learning

If you want to buy a 727 and go shoot touch and gos for 1000 hrs thats not PFT
 

bobbysamd

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P-F-T v. Pleasure Flying

Putting down a chunk of change to purchase time in an airplane is not P-F-T. In the final analysis, it is only pleasure flying. Expensive pleasure flying because it is multi engine. There is nothing wrong with pleasure flying. I did plenty of pleasure flying before I became a professional pilot. I paid for time in the Baron in which I earned my multi to build proficiency. It was all dual.

Once again, pay-for-training is when a company at which you've been hired to be a pilot demands a payment from you to cover the cost of your training at that company as a condition of your being employed at the company.

The prostitution aspect manifests itself in many ways. One way is when the difference between getting the job and not getting it is your willingness and ability to pay for your training. Let's say we have two equally credentialed pilots, both of whom would be fully qualified to work for any commuter. The company in question offers jobs to both. One is willing and able to pay for training. The other pilot cannot (Note: for the moment, I am avoiding "will not." "Will not" and "cannot" are separate issues.). The pilot that can pay gets the job. So do others who, once again, can pay for the training. The basic unfairness of this scenario should be clear.

Another example is a so-called FO training program. I will NOT mention the name of the one that everyone, including me, has bandied about. This is a situation where a person, say with a fresh Commercial-Instrument-Multi, wants a fast track to an airline. We know that although Uncle Sam says you're qualified to be an airline FO at 250 hours, most airlines say differently. However, other airlines give you the chance to qualify, but as a condition of qualifying, you have to pay them money for that privilege. In return for remitting the money, the company will train you and let you fly as a crewmember for a specified number of hours. The issue in this scenario turns on the question of if you would otherwise be hired at an airline at 250 hours (Mesa cannot be included because it does not offer employment to students upon their enrollment at its school. Employment offers, if extended at all, come after students finish the MAPD program). The answer, obviously, is "no." So, to get these jobs, you must pay. No pay (for training), no job. A wild card in this equation is whether you will be kept on or be shown the door after you fly off the time the airline promised. Add to this idea the question if the "experience" gained will be viewed by others as real, legitimate 121/135 experience or as expensive pleasure flying. That seems to be a major issue.

No matter what industry in which you're working, you have to ask yourself if any job is worth paying for your training, as a condition of employment at a company, as I've just discussed. I've worked in three different businesses; aviation is the only business I've seen where as a condition of being hired you have to pay for your training at that company. Personally, I find that to be very demeaning. If you are willing to be demeaned, don't be surprised if your employer treats you accordingly.

For the posts above, after you get past the government's requirements, it's the insurance company in large measure who determines who is best qualified for a job. There is quite a bit of subjective criteria as well, such as the applicant's experience and ability.

Hope these comments help.
 
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Fixin2Lnd

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OK, so what I am discerning from the previous comments is that PFT is not about per hour flying. It's about morals? Whores? Where do the major airlines put in their hiring criteria that an applicant MUST pay "dues" a certain way? Where do they say that you must accrue "xxx" amount of CFI time? Where do they say that after "xxx" amount of CFI time that you have "earned" an interview at a commuter job or at a major? It seems to me that, on their applications, they also have places for ME-turbine time. Which do you think they prefer; your CFI time in a C-150 or ME-turbine, part 121, in a Saab or BE-1900? We all were CFI's, CFII's, MEI's. Not many of us walk out of our C-172RG and into the right seat of a B737. You need to build some complex time, right?
Where, on the application does it say that you shouldn't pay for your training? Airlines don't care if you bought you degree at Embry-Riddle or you earned a scholarship. They care if you got A's and not F's. They don't care if you bought your time at Mesa or Gulfstream or Comair. What they do care is the time in your logbook. Did you fly safe? Do you have PIC time?
I still don't understand why, if the airlines want ME-Turbine applicants, why you would insist on PFT in a recip? If it is cheaper and more coveted flight time in a BE1900 with 121 EXPERIENCE, why not pay for that instead of pattern flying in a Duchess? I don't no where the "whore" aspect of it is derived. It sounds like pure economics to me...
 

boscenter

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Is this your opinion or fact? Do you do airline hiring? Why is there an abundance Gulfstream guys/gals at American, United, Delta, Northwest, Southwest, etc? Do you think these pilots lied on their resumes? Don't airlines do 10 year background checks? Wouldn't they have found out that they had flown at such a "TERRIBLE" outfit and not hired them?
How is this harming the community? Am I dumping fuel?
No, I don't do airline hiring. But I certainly know the process. I do know for a fact that pilots are integral to the hiring process. Pilots evaluate you in the sim, pilots conduct parts of your interview, and pilots have significant input on whether or not you are hired.

I haven't been in this field long enough to know the history and roots of PFT, but I do know that in this modern society PFT is simply not acceptable!

Yes, I'm sure the Gulfstream program works for some people, or it wouldn't exist. But the concept of this program, and the precedent of "anyone with a little money can buy a job" is not one that should stick.

You don't see rookie high school baseball players buying their ticket straight to the major leagues do you? And what do you think would happen to the league if anyone with a couple thousand dollars could buy a slot on a MLB team?

I'm not in any way knocking the quality of pilots produced at these PFT programs. I don't know any of them, so I can't attest to that. But, I don't care how you look at it, who would you prefer flying your mom around? A 250 hr RJ wonder who bought his time for 18k, or a 1200 hr veteran CFI?
 

Fixin2Lnd

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BosCenter wrote:
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" I do know for a fact that pilots are integral to the hiring process. Pilots evaluate you in the sim, pilots conduct parts of your interview, and pilots have significant input on whether or not you are hired."
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What does that half to do with anything? I think we all know that pilots hire pilots along with HR reps and others.
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Veteran 1200 hour pilot that has only flown C-152's? Veteran?
What does flight time have to do with it? I think I would rather have someone that is FAA approved and trained in the aircraft that my mom was flying on, rather than some "veteran" who doesn't even know what jet fuel smells like.
Who's more dangerous? A 250hr F-4 driver with a nuclear warhead or a 250hr copilot in a 1900? What does flight time have to do PFT? They've both been trained for their mission. Experience comes in time. That's why there are two crewmembers, and never forget, you will always be learning. Do you think when you get to the majors you are "experienced", finished learning, and now a veteran? Just because you have 1200 hours, doesn't make you a veteran. It's all relative.
 

boscenter

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Fixin2Lnd,

I don't think you understand the importance of the CFI experience. I don't care how you look at it, but those who can do the job the best are those that can teach it. Being a CFI, you should know this; I certainly do.

If you can honestly tell me that you would take away all of your experience as a CFI (if you have any), including everything you learned during that time, and feel just as experienced and accomplished, then you are full of it.

Also, everyone makes mistakes while learning. And I'd much rather make a majority of these mistakes at 250hrs in a Cessna than at 250hrs in someone elses jet.

This argument is pointless. I could care less about this program. Nothing I say is going to change the fact that it is there.

I'm just going to continue paying my dues, and get to a right seat knowing that I worked harder than the 250hr FO that bought his way through.
 

bobbysamd

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Quality of experience

I am also familiar with the airline hiring process. I spent the better part of six years trying to be hired by a regional airline. I attended five interviews, received interview tutoring, and studied the process heavily. I listened to every one I knew who was hired relate their interview stories. I lost count of the apps I submitted to airlines and the forest full of trees I caused to be slaughtered for resume paper. Not to mention all the time I expended preparing the applications and drafting and redrafting my resume.

No, there are no written rules or proscriptions of which I am aware against paying for training. Hiring criteria is greatly subjective. Some recruiters might pay more attention to you if you earned your degree at one college instead of another, but I doubt they care all that much if you earned As or Fs as long as you have the degree. And, yes, they do care about the time in your logbook. That is the point here about pay-for-training.

Bring in the subjective aspect of hiring. Recruiters do care that you gained your flight time through paid work. They care that the 500 hours of multi you have in your logbook was earned through real professional employment, instructing students, flying freight or checks, or as a legal SIC. If they see that your time was gained through a P-F-T operation, they very well may question the quality and legitimacy of that time. They might wonder if the applicant indeed is as well qualified as his/her logbook suggests. On the other hand, if you indeed earned your time as a flight instructor, it'll be clear how you earned that time. Once again, a lot of hiring criteria is subjective. The commuters hire plenty of pilots who built their time only through flight instruction. I know a few of them.

Finally, I think a lot of the P-F-T controversy stems from how you feel about yourself and the job. For myself, I felt that if the only way I'm going to get a regional flying job is to pay for it, even though I meet every qualification, then I must be a pretty desperate person. But, I never felt that desperate. Flying airplanes for pay and flying for a regional may have been something I always wanted to do, but bottom line is this: it is still just a job. No job is worth groveling for, and paying for training is form of groveling. Maybe it all matters about your pride in yourself and your abilities. Finally, keep in mind the fraud and scam possibilities of P-F-T and how these operators prey upon desperate people. That's what I hate most of all about P-F-T. I hate to see pilots ripped off.

Just more opinions.
 
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Fixin2Lnd

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Where does this chivalry come from? How can you say that 250hrs in a 152 is better than 250hrs in a BE1900?
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Boscenter wrote "I don't think you understand the importance of the CFI experience. I don't care how you look at it, but those who can do the job the best are those that can teach it. Being a CFI, you should know this; I certainly do. "
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While you're doing the "job best in a 152", you could be learning more advanced equipment. Why sell yourself short and fly circles above corn fields when you could be getting the experience you need to make it to a major. I think you are listening to everyone else or think that you have to have a certain amount of instructor time to build your confidence. Do you think the military puts their pilots through 1000 hours of instructor time before they let them fly a jet? Don't put yourself down and think you HAVE to stay an instructor. If you want to pay, go fly a turboprop. If you don't want to pay, keep doing your job best in your 152.

I still can't see what "paying dues" has anything to do with PFT. It seems like pure economics, especially if you get on with a major 5 years quicker. This could equate to millions over a 30 year career.
Hmmmmm.
 

kilomike

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Renting a twin not PFT

Renting a twin to go on a pleasure flight is NOT PFT!:rolleyes:
Renting a twin is harmless fun and I have no problem with pilots enjoying a recreational flight in a rented aircraft. That's what the Seneca sounds like to me. I sometimes rent a Cessna 172. No difference. Have fun and enjoy!!

On the other hand the Gulfstream stuff involves paying passengers being subjected to flight crew who are also paying for flight time--an insult not only to the pilot but to the paying passenger too!! I'd rather swim with the sharks than feed that stupid scab Cooper!! Hey, Cooper, it's the job of the PASSENGER to make your payroll, not the people who are supposed to be your EMPLOYEES!! Besides, I would not give a penny to support a scab's business anyway. What kind of character does a scab have? NONE!! A PAYING passenger wants to pay for not only a ticket but trust too. When I buy that ticket on an airline I want to know I can trust the people who run it. Cooper, a scab, and those PFT'ers who have less flight time than a would-have-been paying passenger do not earn MY trust. I'll trust a shark first!!
 

bobbysamd

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Quality of experience

Look, if you can get a legitimate job flying a Kingair or Cheyenne at 250 hours right out of flight school, more power to you. Good luck convincing your company's insurance company.

It's not a matter of selling one's ability short. The reality of the matter is there just aren't many jobs open to 250-hour pilots. There are always plenty of experienced (and better qualified) pilots available for each opening. At 250 hours and just out of training, no matter how well you fly, or how well you think you fly, you are an entry-level pilot. Flight instruction is the classic entry-level job.

Once again, it boils down to quality and legitimacy of experience. If you are showing a P-F-T job, you may not be given serious consideration by anyone and that five-year jump you hoped to get may have been only a waste of time and money.
 
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