Is I.O.E. considered dual recieved?

328dude

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This question got brought up yesterday and I wasen't sure. Anybody have the low-down on this?
 

Sphincter Boy

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I do not know what type of flying you are talking about, but under CFR121 flying I believe it is logged SIC, even if you are doing a Captain upgrade.

I was an IOE checkairman at COEX and I instructed my students to log all their flight time as SIC until they finish the FED ride. Hope this helps.

SB
 

DoinTime

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If you never recieve any instruction how do you become qualified for a position at a 121 carrier, either SIC or PIC? Yes, your sim training and OE are dual recieved because they are both required to become qualified for the position.
 

Sphincter Boy

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Its called a FAA Fed ride or a Line Check. That is how you satisfy the 121 regs for air carrier ops. For a two pilot crew under 121, you have to have a PIC and a SIC. So tell me, if the First Officer can't log SIC, who is the Second in Command then?

It is logged SIC. Trust me.
 

vclean

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I don't believe you can give dual during a 121 dispatched revenue flight.
 

DoinTime

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Sphincter Boy said:
Its called a FAA Fed ride or a Line Check. That is how you satisfy the 121 regs for air carrier ops. For a two pilot crew under 121, you have to have a PIC and a SIC. So tell me, if the First Officer can't log SIC, who is the Second in Command then?

It is logged SIC. Trust me.
All due respect but I don't think you understood the original question. The question was do you log dual recieved during O.E.? The answer is yes you do. O.E. is considered a part of the required training to become qualified for a PIC position under 121 and it is performed with company IP's/check airmen (usually on revenue flights) and therefor is considered dual recieved.

I was mistaken in my original post about SIC's. O.E. is not a required part of the training before they become qualified for their position. However, O.E., sim training, line checks, and fed rides are all instruction recieved and should be logged accordingly whether it is required traning or not.
 

Smoove Ride

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loggin' sim....

i'm sure many will disagree.... but, as i know it, you can only log sim time if you have a type in the aircraft. whenever i went thru the sim i never had any of the instructors sign my logbook, and they never asked. however, all your training is recorded in company internal paperwork.

most who are typed in said aircraft probably don't need to log it anyway... dual or otherwise. -sr.

BTW.... a fed ride is NOT dual given. they usually make that very clear before a checkride... you are PIC for the flight.
 

frenchy

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:) IOE is not considered as dual. You are SIC. I had that discussion with the FAA 3 years ago, now sometimes you get different answers from 2 people who work for the same organization, but that answer came from Washington.
 

328dude

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WOOOOOO!. What's this about logging sim time if your not typed? Anybody can log sim time my friend. So your saying that the sim time you can recieve for your instrument training is of no value? Level D sim time in order to get qualed in a perticuler aircraft is not able to be logged? What FAR's are you reading? The original question was whether IOE counts as dual. Apparently is does not. But, you are able to log any sim time whether your typed or not. I just don;t think it can count towards your total time.

I spent 34 hours in a level D since I was hired and even though it's not worth much except for training purposes, it's still in the book.

Anybosdy else want to jump on this horse?
 

Smoove Ride

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i won't go into specifics on a topic that's been beat to death in these forums....

yes you can log sim time. yes it counts towards your instrument. do airlines count class 'd' sim time as multi-turbine time towards your total time? probably not. -sr.
 

TWA Dude

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I agree with Frenchy and the others: IOE is SIC time. The concept of Dual Received doesn't apply to Part 121 operations. Dual is a Part 91 kind of thing. Do airline sim or line instructors endorse your logbook? No, because they don't have to. Don't worry about it.
 

DoinTime

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Allright you guys made me get out my FAR's. Turns out I was right the first time.

61.51(h) Logging training time (dual):
(1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized individual in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.

Translation - anytime you are with a IP for the purpose of training whether it be in a 747 or a frasca 141 you log as dual received.

121.434 (a) No certificate holder may use a person nor may any person serve as a required crewmember of an airplane unless the person has satisfactorily completed, on that type of airplane and in that crewmember position, the operating experience, operating cycles, and the line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills, required by this section, except as follows:
(1) Crewmembers other than pilots in command may serve as provided herein for the purpose of meeting the requirements of this section.
(2) Pilots who are meeting the pilot in command requirements may serve as second in command.

Translation - First Officers are not qualified to be SIC until O.E. is complete, but they may serve as SIC for the purpose of meeting this requirement. In other words you can perform the duties of SIC but only under the supervision of a qualified check pilot until your O.E. is complete. Captains are not qualified to be PIC until Fed ride and O.E. is complete and will serve as SIC while performing the duties of the PIC under the supervision of a qualified check pilot until completion of these requirements. While under the supervision of a qualified check airman you are receiving instruction, whether you feel like you are learning or not.

Airlines are required to keep training records for you so you are not required to keep them yourselves. Your training records are the proof that you are qualified to do the job that you do and if your airline either loses or destroys your records you have no proof to future employers that you actually did what you are claiming. Your logs are your business but I keep all of my training events logged and endorsed just in case the company screws it up, who knows, someday it may save my butt.
 

Blueline

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While under the supervision of a qualified check airman you are receiving instruction, whether you feel like you are learning or not.
Here's a question then: Can you log dual received if the person giving the instruction as a check airman is not a CFI/CFII? A check airman does not have to have a CFI or CFII to instruct in a 121 operation.
 

DoinTime

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61.167 (b) An airline transport pilot may instruct -
(1) Other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given.
 

tdvalve

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Man, are some of you guys full of it!
For the record, you absolutely, positively, cannot provide nor receive dual instruction during a part 121 or Part 135 revenue flight. Operating experience is not considered training, and certainly is not dual instruction.
 

DoinTime

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It really is a shame that professional aviators, such as yourselves, have to have the FAR's read to you.
 

1900laker

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This is a moot point. You are not required to log the dual received portion anyways. You only have to log that time which counts toward a rating or to show currency.
 

skydiverdriver

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Why do you want to log dual received anyway? It isnt' required for anything, and does you no good. You must have an instructor sign your LOGBOOK (not the company training records) for any dual instruction given. I have never heard of any airline instructors signing anybodys logbook. Just log it as a required crewmember, sic or pic as appropriate. Forget about dual, unless you are getting a BFR in a Cessna.
 
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