ifr question

fulcrum

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is it legal to cover the windshield of plane from the inside to

simulate imc instead of a hood and file and fly ifr for practice in

vmc ( cloth and velcro or some quick relase )


i know it seems crazy and may raise a few safety issues but i

want to know if any body has done this or heard about this
thanks in advance
fulcrum
 

Humty72

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Simulated Instrument

To me, when I think of topics like this, I do it as though a FAA Inspector is observing the flight. So, I say no because:

- When you use a view limiting device, a safety pilot is needed to "see and avoid" other traffic. Covering the windscreen would restrict that persons view and ability to scan for traffic.. and would probably lead to 91.13 Careless or reckless if you had a near mid-air collision, or worse ..

$.02
 

Boeingman

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You're kidding right? Seriously?

In case you're not:

Do us all a favor and get a safety pilot and use the hood. You think you're the only guy tooling around in those VMC conditions?
You could have a VFR climbing or descend through your IFR altitude.

ATC may or may not call VFR traffic depending on their workload.
 

bobbysamd

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You must be kidding . . . .

Your safety pilot or CFI-I needs full range of view to serve that function. Just bite the bullet and use a hood.

If you are looking for a really good view-limiting device, Mesa students used some kind of contraption that reminded me of a cross between old fashioned pilot goggles and welder's goggles. Maybe someone will know what they are called. I've seen them in the Sporty's catalogue.
 

avbug

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Yes, it's legal to do. The circumstances vary, but to answer only the question of legality operating with a blacked out cockpit, you bet. Yes, without question The military has done it for years (in former training times, blacked out cockpits and socks were standard), quite safely. The first demonstration of an approach and instrument flight, by Billy Mitchell, was done exactly in this manner, without the benifit of modern instrumentation, technology, navaids, or aircraft. And he did it to a complete landing, repeatedly.

The matter is dealt with in 14 CFR 91.109(b). The safety pilot present during simulated instrument flight must be able to meet the field of vision requirements established by 91.109(b)(2). This means being able to have adequate vision forward and to each side of the aricraft. Alternately, a competent observer who has this visibility may be used.

The exact specifics of the answer to your question will vary with the aircraft and the application. In many light aircraft, it may be difficult to achieve the field of vision requirements and still adequately black out the cockpit, and in many others it is possible using a combination of a safety pilot and an observer. It's much easier in tandem aircraft such as a T-34, or T-6, but is also quite possible in many standard training aircraft with side by side seating, if properly done.

Bobby, you're probably thinking of the Francis Hood. It's one of the oldest standard view limiting devices still in use today. Personally, the lightest and most comfortable commercial device I've found is the Jeppshades. Otherwise, it's hard to beat the comfort of a ball cap with cardboard stapled around the outside for ease convenience, and wearability with a headset. A helmet with a sandblasted visor works well, too.
 

troy

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For my IFR check ride, my examiner unfolded a sectional and put it up in the windscreen, but he could still see-and-advoid (C-172) Lives are at stake........
 

ipilot

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i'm sure its totally legal to do so as far as the safety pilot has the unobstructed view. in my school we use a thing we called the screens. its made out of hardboard and we stick it with a velcro on the windsheild at such an angle that the student is not able to see but the view doesn't restricts the view of the instructor. primarily these screens r used in the JAA instrument rating and not for FAA. i personally think that the screens r very good compare to foggles but some angles they do really block but u've to devolpe ur scan as a safety pilot or an instructor to overcome that those areas. i hope this helps....


_________________________
Check that its three greens.......
 
3

350DRIVER

I think it is a "judgement" call by the CFII who is instructing and should be left up to him whether or not he wants to cover it up..

I personally will do it to the left side of the students side to restrict his view "outside" IF I have any inclination that they are cheating by looking outside since I have found that alot of students do and will "sneak a peak" outside while tracking the localizer inbound and at other points and times during the flight. This is a temptation that I have seen too often and will occur in most cases with just the basic view limiting device so to assure this does not happen I will unfold a low enroute and cover their side up BUT not mine since I will be looking for any conflicting traffic that may pose a safety threat.

This is a perfectly "legal" practice to do and many other CFII's will do this to ensure the student is using his instruments and "perfecting" his/her cross check and scan to the fullest of their abilities... When I did my INST ride with the FAA the inspector did this to me and I have continued the tradition if you can even call it that...
Moral of the story I guess would be to say that every CFII is different and will use different teaching techniques to ensure that the person receiving the training is getting the best possible instruction available to them. Their is only ONE outcome that we as CFII's want to accomplish and that would be to instruct in a way that when your student is Instrument rated he is a very "safe" and proficient Instrument pilot and will minimize his risks and vulnerabilities.

How you accomplish this is completely up to you since their are a vast number of ways that this could be done so if you don't feel safe "restricting" views outside by covering the shield up by charts, maps, etc then by all means don't do it....
my $.02
 

bobbysamd

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Francis Hood

Thanks, Avbug, that's the device. I've also seen the baseball cap hood as well.
 

Jump Pilot

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Sounds like a lot of work. I found an old pair of safety glasses and put electrical tape over them, leaving an open space for viewing.

$20 for Foggles? That's 1/8 of an hour of multi time!:)
 

FlyinBrian

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I actually once saw a neat product, but it may be more trouble than it's worth. It consisted of a transparent orange (blue filter) film that went on the inside of the cockpit glass. The student then wore a pair of Blue (Orange filter) Glasses. This blacked out the cockpit for the student but not the instructor. Neat idea even if it is a pain tin the but.
 

Timebuilder

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I've heard of the method that Brian is talking about. Was it mentioned on the Cessna Pilot Center CD Rom course? It sounds like it would be very effective.
 

Floyd94

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For once I agree with avbug, it is legal and it is often used. We did it at my regional when I was doing my PC ride. Of course only my half of the windshield was covered up.
 
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A Squared

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Not to comment on the safety or advisability of it, but the POI at my company used to do checkrides with the checkee's windshield completely coverd with a piece of cardboard. The opposite side windshield was left uncovered of course. That method was discarded along with the POI.


Regards
 

avbug

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Note that covering half the windshield with a chart, a sock or hood, or cardboard doesn't fulfill the requirement of the FAR unless the safety pilot has full visibility forward and to BOTH sides. Otherwise, an observer to supplement the blocked field of vision for the safety pilot, is required. It's great that examiners and POI's can see out "their side," but that only addresses traffic coming from that side.

A safety pilot is not aboard to take control in the event of pilot error on the part of the person flying by reference to instruments. The safety pilot is there for safety, and to watch out for traffic. It's legal to fly with the cockpit encased or the windscreen blanked out, so long as the safety pilot can still do his or her job. If a big piece of cardboard is blocking the field of vision for the safety pilot and a supplementary competent observer isn't available, it's not legal, and it's NOT safe.

It must be done under the right circumstances, or it shouldn't be done at all.
 
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