IBT Lawsuit

gutshotdraw

ZERT Wilson CQB User
Joined
May 6, 2005
Posts
3,226
Total Time
9000
Saw the announcement today that IBT has filed suit against DAC/FO/FJ for stonewalling negotiations for a joint CBA and the seniority list submitted by 1108.

DAC/FO/FJ called IBT's seniority integration "patently unfair" despite that list apparently receiving unanimous approval fom the pilot representatives of both FO and FJ.

So, can somebody give me the Cliff's Notes version of:

A: The method used by 1108 to create the list that was submitted.

B: The method that management would rather use that is supposedly more "fair"?

Some of us on the outside are curious as to how the various SLI's were constructed and who is who in the whole battle.

I know this is a touchy subject but maybe somebody can explain it first without the usual hate, vitriol, and spin.

THEN, everybody can start flinging poo at each other.

Thanks, and good luck.
 

Photoflight

AIR rAMBO
Joined
Jun 9, 2005
Posts
541
Total Time
2500
I think there's two issues.

1. The IBT is supposed to create and agree to fence agreements BEFORE a combined seniority list is made. This makes since I think because otherwise thered be an immediate and almost total reshuffle of pilots and airplanes.

2. The company claims the new seniority list is unfair to the FLoPs pilots who transferred to Flex thier choice is to go back to flops and keep thier original senility number which would force 4ish dozen training events and leave Flex short staffed. Or they can stay at Flex and keep thier Flex seniority number which puts them all at the very bottom of the proposed seniority list of nearly 700 pilots.
 
Last edited:

dime line

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2003
Posts
1,468
Total Time
nuf
I think there's two issues.

1. The IBT is supposed to create and agree to fence agreements BEFORE a combined seniority list is made. This makes since I think because otherwise thered be an immediate and almost total reshuffle of pilots and airplanes.

2.
The company claims the new seniority list is unfair to the FLoPs pilots who transferred to Flex thier choice is to go back to flops and keep thier original senility number which would force 4ish dozen training events and leave Flex short staffed. Or they can stay at Flex and keep thier Flex seniority number which puts them all at the very bottom of the proposed seniority list of nearly 700 pilots.

So what isnt fair about giving the transfers a choice, just putting them at the bottom or top wouldnt be fair, give em a choice- stay in your shinny new jet or go back to FLOPs.
 

gutshotdraw

ZERT Wilson CQB User
Joined
May 6, 2005
Posts
3,226
Total Time
9000
"Original senility number"

Hahahahaha! Freudian slip? We have more than a few that fit in that category.

Just seems like I need a scorecard to keep the players straight since we're not privy to some of the history of transfers, Red Label, etc. etc.
 

993_Pilot

MIGS
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Posts
569
Total Time
20 yrs
Saw the announcement today that IBT has filed suit against DAC/FO/FJ for stonewalling negotiations for a joint CBA and the seniority list submitted by 1108.

DAC/FO/FJ called IBT's seniority integration "patently unfair" despite that list apparently receiving unanimous approval fom the pilot representatives of both FO and FJ.

So, can somebody give me the Cliff's Notes version of:

A: The method used by 1108 to create the list that was submitted.

B: The method that management would rather use that is supposedly more "fair"?

Some of us on the outside are curious as to how the various SLI's were constructed and who is who in the whole battle.

I know this is a touchy subject but maybe somebody can explain it first without the usual hate, vitriol, and spin.

THEN, everybody can start flinging poo at each other.

Thanks, and good luck.
The method used was longevity / years of service. Management hasn't said what they would rather see, but what they take exception with is that under the SLI, the Flight Options pilots on temporary leave to fly Flexjet airplanes have to make a choice of staying there and using their longevity at Flexjet, or returning and using their longevity at Options. What it really boils down to is that they want to be able to leave their hand-chosen, mostly anti-union, "Friends-of-Kenn" pilots in the Gulfstreams and Globals who were awarded those positions out of seniority, and of course stall the negotiations further.
 

doh

Jump seat shrink
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Posts
4,017
Total Time
48 yrs
Everyone knows management's issue with the transfers. They want to give them an unfair advantage over the rest of the pilots. But many don't understand the fences before IMPLEMENTATION clause. Management would have you believe the pilots can't even say "integrated seniority list" until the fences have been agreed to. That is a lie. The seniority list we, the pilots, have agreed to is perfectly legal. It simply has to wait for fences to become effective. Nothing prevents, or prevented us from negotiating a list. Lack of fences prevents that list from being implemented. Fences themselves are subject to expedited arbitration, which management is trying to dodge. This will all be worked out in the lawsuit. The judge will kick the whole thing back to arbitration, and we will settle this.
 

shanes123

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Posts
969
Total Time
6000
DOH since you seem to be on the know. How long will that all take approximately ? And now there's talk of a furlough today which I'm sure will complicate the issue
 

doh

Jump seat shrink
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Posts
4,017
Total Time
48 yrs
Shanes, call your p2p rep for an update. I'm not trying to be evasive, but this is something for p2p.
 

GlorifiedCabbie

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Posts
1,220
Total Time
15+
Everyone knows management's issue with the transfers. They want to give them an unfair advantage over the rest of the pilots.

Ricci tried to do an end-run around 90% of the Flex/Options pilots by giving the transfers "super seniority". Now that court procedings have been ongoing for some time, I look foreward to the Federal Judge's decision. The company says they will be transparent, but they failed to keep the pilots updated like they promised to do. I hope the judge can see thru Ricci's charade. Ricci is a good talker but falls short when it comes time to deliver for all the pilots.
 

GlorifiedCabbie

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Posts
1,220
Total Time
15+
I noticed several transfer pilots who had been working at Flex on LOA from Options have recently been removed from the Options list. Funny thing is they are still working at Flex. The only way that could have happened is if they took a VSP from options. Double dipping for FOKs?
 

flexible

Well-known member
Joined
May 1, 2015
Posts
85
Total Time
9000
I noticed several transfer pilots who had been working at Flex on LOA from Options have recently been removed from the Options list. Funny thing is they are still working at Flex. The only way that could have happened is if they took a VSP from options. Double dipping for FOKs?
Are you serious?

I know someone who was once questioned by my acp for ordering two entrees on a dinner reciept. It was the west coast and the portion was tiny. I was hungry. It was denied.

So now you're saying they can do close to the same thing but to the tune of 75K or so not $20?

What fleets are they from? Don't some fleets get more months on the vsp?
 

doh

Jump seat shrink
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Posts
4,017
Total Time
48 yrs
I don't believe it's been confirmed they are all still on our list. But there are at least three of six known pilots who took the Options VSP and are currently at Flex.
 
Last edited:

doh

Jump seat shrink
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Posts
4,017
Total Time
48 yrs
If you were unaware of this, you need to get on the VUH. You also need to make sure P2P has your correct contact info, because you are not getting the scoop from whatever you're source is now. This has been widely known for a while.
 

Imissmypilot

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Posts
536
Total Time
7500
I agree with DOH you need to get on the VUH but even so the information is still lacking.

I did call someone who was involved in the union drive to get an update on the court situation. It seems that's the only hope I have of getting any information these days. I don't think he is my p2p but I have no idea who my p2p person is.

He brought up two good points. The company is actually the party who brought this suit. I was not aware of that but when I went to look back on all the documents, it's accurate. We need to remember this point when looking at all the spin the company is putting on this. Not only are they NOT giving us updates as promised, all the distraction they are crying was created by their side.

The other point he brought up is the union is NOT against the VSP. They actually like it, like the idea and have always been in support of it. Also, something I was not aware of as I was under the impression they were generally opposed. He said the entire sticking point, 100%, was the companies refusal to make it as an addendum to the CBA for Options and offer it with weingarden rights to Flex who stayed. Sure they also tried to see if they could get more but would have settled on those 2 simple points. The company not only refused to even discuss these requests they also supposedly told them to ******************** off they don't have any intention of negotiating anything anymore ever with the union. Hence this current lawsuit is really more about removing the union (a legal maneuver decertification if you will) than anything else.

So once again a complete fail in the part of "leadership" to clarify important points that would win people to their side. These are huge blaring neon signs and yet absolutely no action, word or even a post by our "leaders" to clarify. That is why the perception of the union is failing at Flexjet. The company is getting 100% of the soundbite replay. Sorry, Flexjet people don't care about Volta etc... I'm sure he's a great guy but he is an Options guy. Once again I have to ask where the ******************** is Flexjet in all of this?

I will say if glorified cabbie is correct in his accusation then I am 100% against the VSP and very suspicious if this wasn't just a back door way to reward the FOKs while the rest of us argued over a benefit we were never going to get.

Do we even know who really got the VSP? Handshuch said 100 or so, right? Really? I know for a fact they are calling off resumes through a buddy who got a call. That does not sound like a company who needs to thin the seniority list.

This seems a little fishy. I know according to management on yammer I am literally stupid for supporting the union but even a stupid person can see this doesn't add up.
 

slowtation capt

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2003
Posts
445
Total Time
Tons
I agree with DOH you need to get on the VUH but even so the information is still lacking.

I did call someone who was involved in the union drive to get an update on the court situation. It seems that's the only hope I have of getting any information these days. I don't think he is my p2p but I have no idea who my p2p person is.

He brought up two good points. The company is actually the party who brought this suit. I was not aware of that but when I went to look back on all the documents, it's accurate. We need to remember this point when looking at all the spin the company is putting on this. Not only are they NOT giving us updates as promised, all the distraction they are crying was created by their side.

The other point he brought up is the union is NOT against the VSP. They actually like it, like the idea and have always been in support of it. Also, something I was not aware of as I was under the impression they were generally opposed. He said the entire sticking point, 100%, was the companies refusal to make it as an addendum to the CBA for Options and offer it with weingarden rights to Flex who stayed. Sure they also tried to see if they could get more but would have settled on those 2 simple points. The company not only refused to even discuss these requests they also supposedly told them to ******************** off they don't have any intention of negotiating anything anymore ever with the union. Hence this current lawsuit is really more about removing the union (a legal maneuver decertification if you will) than anything else.

So once again a complete fail in the part of "leadership" to clarify important points that would win people to their side. These are huge blaring neon signs and yet absolutely no action, word or even a post by our "leaders" to clarify. That is why the perception of the union is failing at Flexjet. The company is getting 100% of the soundbite replay. Sorry, Flexjet people don't care about Volta etc... I'm sure he's a great guy but he is an Options guy. Once again I have to ask where the ******************** is Flexjet in all of this?

I will say if glorified cabbie is correct in his accusation then I am 100% against the VSP and very suspicious if this wasn't just a back door way to reward the FOKs while the rest of us argued over a benefit we were never going to get.

Do we even know who really got the VSP? Handshuch said 100 or so, right? Really? I know for a fact they are calling off resumes through a buddy who got a call. That does not sound like a company who needs to thin the seniority list.

This seems a little fishy. I know according to management on yammer I am literally stupid for supporting the union but even a stupid person can see this doesn't add up.
And that my friends is some well spoken truth right there.
 

Imissmypilot

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Posts
536
Total Time
7500
I have confirmed there is in fact at least 1 transfer who took the VSP from Options who is still flying for Flexjet.

We need to get a look at the deal he signed. It should be very telling. Apparently, he didn't have to resign from One Sky or Flexjet, just Options.

I called a Flexjet buddy who took the VSP. His paperwork said OneSky.

Hmmmmmm

I smell fish with a lingering hint of total bull$hit.

When are Flexers ever going to learn. Who looks stupid now, Windbag?

For someone as morally sanctimonious as that POS, I wonder if he's okay with our transfers getting two paychecks from both sides of the company while toddlers Dads are out on the street?

All with Ken Ricci's blessing. Hell, not just his blessing but with his maneuvering it would seem. The blind devotion to this apparently immoral and care-less individual all in the name of sucking up for your own career is shameless. Sycophants, you think you're ingratiating yourself to your new masters but in reality you are the worst kind of slave. And everyone is starting to see you for who you are and how to get ahead. You are just as bad as the FOKs getting two paychecks. You are all w*************************.
 

doh

Jump seat shrink
Joined
Aug 26, 2003
Posts
4,017
Total Time
48 yrs
Public appeal: If you know a pilot who has resigned at Options and is still at Flexjet, please let one of the SLI committee members know. It helps to keep the seniority list properly ordered. Management has not been forthcoming with that information. Thank you.
 

shanes123

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Posts
969
Total Time
6000
These individuals need to be made public. I understand you can't do that here do to FI rules but can it be done on the VUH or a email from the union president???? WOW two paycheck a from same company..is that the purpose of the VSP??? If any pilot here Flex or OPT does not have a problem with that including the Brain Dead Label there is something seriously wrong.
 
Last edited:
Top