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I was right again

rajflyboy

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I predicted a very unhappy pilot group after the 2015 CBA

I was called an idiot, clueless, etc. Pilots were told to leave if they didn’t like it. (They are). We were told over and over this is the best and final offer. (75% fell for this sh#t)

For some stupid reason 75 percent of the pilots voted yes for this nonsense (now many that voted yes are complaining). (And now you can’t find anyone who voted yes) :p

Several union folks who pushed this CBA have moved on to better jobs.

What a darn mess (just as I predicted)

You folks should listen to Uncle Jerry when he speaks. Vote no once in a while.

I hate it it when I’m right AGAIN

- - - Updated - - -

:laugh:
 

Seahawk

Bagdad Bob
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We need more like you on board
On board with what? You and others on here want to be some sort of prediction Goo- rues, ejaculating your special green spewage of fake news. Again and again I say, "You are more reptile then man!"
 

rajflyboy

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Fake news?

you mean the folks who said “this is the last and final offer”?
or the folks that said “Company is goin broke if we don’t sign this?

:smash:
 

rajflyboy

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No worries

only another 6 years before the contract comes due
 

realityman

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I'm not sure what you're talking about. The pilot group, by and large, is fine. The NJASAP message boards aren't necessarily reflective of the pilot group at large.

Are people leaving in ever increasing numbers? You bet! And why wouldn't they? If you're relatively young (under 50), an F/O or even a junior captain, the opportunities for making more and having a better QOL are better outside of Netjets. I don't think there's any argument there.

However, are they necessarily unhappy with our CBA? Or even the job? Most I speak with would certainly like to see improvements, but they aren't unhappy.

Maybe the better question is, are they unhappy with the company (ie: management)? That's an entirely different question and response.

You seem to be of the opinion that a better CBA would translate into things being better. Here is where I would disagree with you. A management team hell bent on making us miserable will do so even with a better CBA. There are ALWAYS ways for them to accomplish that. Just look at the airlines. UPS pilots certainly do better than us, yet if you talk to them they are the most miserable group of pilots around. They hate their management team whom they're always fighting with, and don't seem to like the job much either. And pretty much every airline group seems pretty miserable when contract time comes around. The list of gripes from a supposedly happy group is pretty dang long.

Has nothing to do with their CBA and everything to do with how management treats them.

And then there's the fact that pilots, as a general rule, will always find something to complain about. Reference the renewed ferry flight policy on our own boards. Management brought this nice little perk back. You can ride on our ferrying aircraft, bring your parents (and in-laws), your spouse and/or your kids. And many are posting their successful experiences and the good times they're having with it. Yet there are others who are complaining they can't bring their ex-wife's kid's soccer coach on these flights. It's terrible, TERRIBLE! they'll tell you! Management is being so awful with this!

I'm not saying the ferry policy makes our CBA great. I'm just using it and an example that pilots live up to the old joke about making a million dollars a year and only having to work Wednesdays and complaining "Yeah, but EVERY Wednesday?!".

Additionally, there are economic realities that the biggest complainers and "prognosticators" simply don't want to acknowledge. One example: Most everyone agrees we should have gotten better compensation. Okay fine. Personally, I'm all for making more money and having better retirement. Bring it on! But another big complaint is QOL, and rightfully so. Trouble is, many if not most people screaming loudest about it aren't looking at what they're asking for. A lot of people are comparing our scheduling to the airlines (clearly, ours isn't viewed favorably). Airline pilots only work 10-12 days a month, and rarely have days that exceed 8-9 hours let alone going to 14 hours. However, has anyone bothered to look at the airline crewing ratios? Most airlines have a ratio of 12 pilots per plane (at least! Some have more!). Netjets is currently at 5.8 pilots per plane. So, in order to have the scheduling lives that they do at the airlines, we'd pretty much need the same crewing ratio. That means we'd need to DOUBLE the number of pilots working here. Even if that could be accomplished quickly, has anyone looked at what that would cost the company? It's hundreds of millions of dollars (salaries and benefits included). So now we've solved (hopefully) the QOL issues. But how much does that leave for the big raises and far better retirement we want?

Oh, they can just raise prices to our clients. Sure. The dream that a company, which is already 30-40% more expensive than most other alternatives, can just pump up prices another 10-15%. Got it. The rich don't care, right?

I don't think people here are as unhappy as you say. Okay, not as unhappy with the CBA as you say. Unhappy with company management? Yes, definitely. By the way, one other factor in play with CBA discontent may be knowledge of it (lack of) coupled with spine to use it. I've found that many people unhappy with the CBA haven't actually read it, or understand it, so aren't using what's in there to make things better for themselves. And too many people complaining of being tired simply lack the spine to call in fatigued, a very well known provision in our CBA that no one has EVER been disciplined for using. How many understand the standby time rules? They're not that hard if you go over it for a few minutes. Lots of stuff in there too many people don't bother to educate themselves on.

You predicted people would be unhappy with the 2015 CBA? Yeah, okay. Pilots unhappy with their CBA. That was probably pretty tough to predict. Okay, I predict Delta pilots will all suddenly be unhappy with their CBA when it's time for their next round of negotiations. Pilots finding faults with their CBA is about as hard to predict as the sun coming up each day.
 

rajflyboy

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It took you 12 paragraphs to say absolutely nothing

The golden goose would would be proud of you. He could babble very well but not much of anything important coming from his mouth. :p

Realityman. This wasn’t your fault. 75% voted yes and believed what they were told (well a few of those 75% were just done fighting). I don’t blame the negotiators. They weren’t the ones pushing this hard like a few others were.

We could have gotten a standard 10 hour day rather than a 12 hour day. Split the money any way you want it (overtime or base pay). I still think most days could be 10 hour days. Heck we have 1.5 hour shows now. That’s a half hour wasted right there that would not have been overtime (ie.. no cost involved).

It is what it is. Nothing will change. I just hope 8 years from now the voters will think before they vote.
 

realityman

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You think I said a whole lot of nothing? Sorry you feel that way. Perhaps i just wasn't clear.

The people who are truly unhappy with the CBA don't understand the dynamics.

Length of duty day is only one issue. My point is, it's all interconnected. We can't get everything we want because the cost of one section must be taken out of another. We can't get airline schedules without airline crewing. Airline crewing would be a MASSIVE cost increase to the company. If we did that, where is the money for the raises we want going to come from?

The haters of the CBA say "Well, just charge the clients more. They're rich, they'll pay it. ".
Uh huh.

To that, I would say, if it's so easy to raise prices, why haven't they done so already? Everything, and I do mean EVERYTHING, this management team does is meant to squeeze every last dime out of this place. So if it was so easy to raise prices 5% or 10% or whatever because the rich will just pay it, why haven't they done so already? I can't imagine the EMT or BH saying "We could easily make X% more by raising prices, but nah, we're not going to do it!".

Clearly, there are limits. That's not what I want to hear, but it's reality. Now, could they pay us more NOW? Yeah, I think so. And, they may HAVE to do so at some point if we hope to attract enough qualified pilots.

But no, i don't believe there's enough money there, as well as pricing elasticity, to get us all the improvements everyone is complaining about and wants to have.
 

rajflyboy

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You think I said a whole lot of nothing? Sorry you feel that way. Perhaps i just wasn't clear.

The people who are truly unhappy with the CBA don't understand the dynamics.

Length of duty day is only one issue. My point is, it's all interconnected. We can't get everything we want because the cost of one section must be taken out of another. We can't get airline schedules without airline crewing. Airline crewing would be a MASSIVE cost increase to the company. If we did that, where is the money for the raises we want going to come from?

The haters of the CBA say "Well, just charge the clients more. They're rich, they'll pay it. ".
Uh huh.

To that, I would say, if it's so easy to raise prices, why haven't they done so already? Everything, and I do mean EVERYTHING, this management team does is meant to squeeze every last dime out of this place. So if it was so easy to raise prices 5% or 10% or whatever because the rich will just pay it, why haven't they done so already? I can't imagine the EMT or BH saying "We could easily make X% more by raising prices, but nah, we're not going to do it!".

Clearly, there are limits. That's not what I want to hear, but it's reality. Now, could they pay us more NOW? Yeah, I think so. And, they may HAVE to do so at some point if we hope to attract enough qualified pilots.

But no, i don't believe there's enough money there, as well as pricing elasticity, to get us all the improvements everyone is complaining about and wants to have.
I agree with you about costs and yes we do not want to affectively price ourselves out of business but I also mentioned different ways to come up with the same cost of a contract. For example: Less pay but more overtime. Most of us would prefer the goal being a 10 hour day and not a 12 hour day. Now you can already take 30 minutes out of your equation because the show time is normally 1:30 minutes now. So now we are down to squabbling about 1.5 hours per day. I will take the OT over base pay for this.
 

rajflyboy

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CBA is extremely important because CMH will always be very very very difficult to deal with

This is why I hope for a miracle some day and the possibility the company will move the hell out of Ohio. A true miracle is needed. We need new blood and fresh ideas.
 

Hogprint

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CBA is extremely important because CMH will always be very very very difficult to deal with

This is why I hope for a miracle some day and the possibility the company will move the hell out of Ohio. A true miracle is needed. We need new blood and fresh ideas.
Agreed, but let’s not hold our breath...

The Great Santulli once threatened to move the operation when CMH wouldn’t play ball and move an antenna for the expanded campus.

RDU was in the running and brought the White Knight of Belmar down for some wining and dining. They gave him a very good offer if I remember correctly, not to mention the 4:1 exchange in the talent pool drawing from Wake Forest, Duke, NCSU and UNC from OSU.

Unfortunately for them and by extension, us, the Great One was only using them for leverage against CMH. They caved like a cheap card table and here we are. Stuck in the land of zealots and pilot haters.

That culture is ingrained in that crowd there. It’s never going to change unless the Welcome to Ohio sign is in the rearview mirror.
 

rajflyboy

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That mess was just a tax ploy to get money from Ohio/CMH

The rest of us are stuck with the “The OSU” crowd for a very long time

RDU would have given this company options for much higher talent levels with employees
 

AirBear8

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Can anyone name a single pilot group that is happy with their CBA and Management team?

NetJets will only give their pilots a better QOL when they have to because attrition and hiring have become bad enough. My personal pet peeve was circadian rhythm flips. The older I got the less change I could tolerate. As a night owl going from a 0900 show to an 0500 show would do me in. But on late trips I could fly until 0400-0500. At RGS I told my CP that I was fine finishing a 14 hour day at 0400, but was NOT fine starting a 14 hour day at 0400. I almost never flew a full duty period after an early show unless I'd had several days to adjust.

I'm on Med LOA and to tell you the truth I really don't care to return, even if I had the option to. And that's 100% because of scheduling. I liked the jet I flew, I liked the mission, seeing a new airport almost every tour, some really cool pax, etc. If I wanted to I could make over $200K/yr, in fact I did that on the CC76 and with 20/20 hindsight that's what expedited my going on MLOA.

I don't pretend to know how hard it'd be to implement something like an AM/PM schedule preference but I am certain it'd reduce the fatigue calls.
 

rajflyboy

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Can anyone name a single pilot group that is happy with their CBA and Management team?

NetJets will only give their pilots a better QOL when they have to because attrition and hiring have become bad enough. My personal pet peeve was circadian rhythm flips. The older I got the less change I could tolerate. As a night owl going from a 0900 show to an 0500 show would do me in. But on late trips I could fly until 0400-0500. At RGS I told my CP that I was fine finishing a 14 hour day at 0400, but was NOT fine starting a 14 hour day at 0400. I almost never flew a full duty period after an early show unless I'd had several days to adjust.

I'm on Med LOA and to tell you the truth I really don't care to return, even if I had the option to. And that's 100% because of scheduling. I liked the jet I flew, I liked the mission, seeing a new airport almost every tour, some really cool pax, etc. If I wanted to I could make over $200K/yr, in fact I did that on the CC76 and with 20/20 hindsight that's what expedited my going on MLOA.

I don't pretend to know how hard it'd be to implement something like an AM/PM schedule preference but I am certain it'd reduce the fatigue calls.
I think most approved of the 2005 CBA

2015 had a complete lack of QOL minus the pilots who could hold the cc52

A big part of the problem is the hand holding that we see day in and day out. They need to trust the crews more often. Crews are on the front lines and see exactly what is happening. Pilots also need to talk directly with scheduling. No middle person.
 

AirBear8

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I was standing at the FBO counter somewhere in West Texas. I had already asked the staff what time they opened in the morning, they said 0700. Next day brief gave us an 0600 show with a few hours before we needed to leave. Called the FM and said I was standing at the counter and FBO didn't open until 7. He said, but the computer says they open at 6 so that must be right! :rolleyes:

I think most approved of the 2005 CBA

2015 had a complete lack of QOL minus the pilots who could hold the cc52

A big part of the problem is the hand holding that we see day in and day out. They need to trust the crews more often. Crews are on the front lines and see exactly what is happening. Pilots also need to talk directly with scheduling. No middle person.
 

rajflyboy

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I was standing at the FBO counter somewhere in West Texas. I had already asked the staff what time they opened in the morning, they said 0700. Next day brief gave us an 0600 show with a few hours before we needed to leave. Called the FM and said I was standing at the counter and FBO didn't open until 7. He said, but the computer says they open at 6 so that must be right! :rolleyes:
treating people like kids
 
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