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When I first started training for the IR I read all the techniques (thumb, overlay, etc.) but after a couple hours on 'em I began to look at the intersection, read back the clearance, and it just becames obvious which entry to use. The only time I screw it up is when my inbound heading is right at the edge of the boundary of the different entries. Then I have to think a little bit. But usually ... just look at it and visualize per the readback.

I wonder if there is someway to teach an IR student to become intuitive with entries? To just look at it, read back the clearance and instantly visualize the hold? I'm definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer and I figured if I caught on ... anyone could. :D

What do you pros do in the rare event you're given a hold? I guess at your level of experience you instantly recognize the entry?

Minh Thong
("You know what an Idiot Savant is? Well, I'm half of that.")
 
Well, I'm in the dark here, but based on what Snakum was saying about getting it during the readback, I wonder (from a student's point of view) if it wouldn't help to practice radio calls for it. My friend had the idea to shoot radio calls back and forth on the ground. He is pretty experienced, so he would come up with some calls and have me respond as if I was in the plane and he was ATC. Kinda like playing house I guess (Dorky Pilot Series material). But maybe if he was forced to visualize it by calling it back it would help. I really have no idea about any of this, though. Not yet at least:cool:
 
Well, when I used to teach, I would have the student use the DG. Since I am terrible with numbers (you know, that 70/110 thing), I like to make things easy. If you are told to hold north on the 360 radial or bearing from (NDB), I would have the guy put his finger on the 360 mark on the outside of the HSI or DG and move his finger into the center of the instrument. This is the inbound course of 180. Then he would make a right or left racetrack pattern based on the clearance. He now can visualise the hold right on the instrument. All he has to do now is determin the entry based on wheter he arrives in or out if the racetrack. Outside, normaly parrallel, inside, teardrop or direct. I usually tell them just to make the easiest turn and 99.9% of the time it is the correct entry. Very easy meathod and no drawing. After they learn this meathod, they can easily figure out the hold in just a few seconds and instantly see their inbound and out bound headings.
Just another meathod to try. Hope that helps.;)
 
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Snakum said:
When I first started training for the IR I read all the techniques (thumb, overlay, etc.) but after a couple hours on 'em I began to look at the intersection, read back the clearance, and it just becames obvious which entry to use. The only time I screw it up is when my inbound heading is right at the edge of the boundary of the different entries. Then I have to think a little bit. But usually ... just look at it and visualize per the readback.

I wonder if there is someway to teach an IR student to become intuitive with entries? To just look at it, read back the clearance and instantly visualize the hold? I'm definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer and I figured if I caught on ... anyone could. :D

What do you pros do in the rare event you're given a hold? I guess at your level of experience you instantly recognize the entry?

Minh Thong
("You know what an Idiot Savant is? Well, I'm half of that.")

Obviously, being able to listen to the clearance and intuitively know how to enter is the ultimate goal, but some have a harder time picking it up than others, especially while still learning....

Ali
 
I used to teach two methods: "wind arrow" and "Mercedes Benz" :D

Wind arrow: draw the holding pattern as the instructions are read...

"Cessna 3WB, hold southeast..."

(Draw a 'wind arrow' coming up/right from the SE, i.e. if someone told you the wind was 360 @ 10, you'd draw an arrow pointing down)

"...of the LIT Vortac..."

(Draw a circle at the point of the arrow, i.e. the fix)

"...135 radial..."

(Write 135 on the tail of the wind arrow)

"...right hand turns..."

(Draw a racetrack starting with a right turn from the arrowhead)

"...5-mile legs."

(Put a 5 near the tail of the arrow)

You should then be able to figure out the direction of initial entry just by visualizing your heading to the fix. But if not...

Mercedes Benz: visualize a Mercedes-Benz hood ornament (that 3-bladed prop thingie) over your heading indicator. The top prong goes through your current heading, and the side prongs point to 70 degrees from either side of the BOTTOM of the instrument (or 20 degrees below the 90-degree indices, if you like). Then set your heading marker (if equipped) on, or visualize (if not) the outbound holding heading (probably the same as the radial). If the outbound heading is in the left third of the hood ornament, turn left. If it's in the right third, turn right. If it's in the lower third, turn in the direction of holding. If it's "close" to the top prong, it's probably a teardrop.
 
I have never taught, and don't use, 70 degree this or that to get into a hold. I turn the shortest way to the outbound heading, and start time. One there I have at least a minute to figure out where I want to go. It's only a matter of deciding which way to turn back to the inbound course. No math or calculation is required.

Moreover, I don't attempt to figure out what kind of entry to use, and don't teach a student to do that either. Whatever looks right for the entry is what gets used. Calculations over.

Mental gymnastics only complicate things in the cockpit. It's rather like flying an NDB approach. One can figure relative bearing and account for wind correction and all other manner of voodoo. However, when all is said and done, one turns toward the pointy end of the needle, and stays pretty much there. If the pointy end moves, you move a little more, and then back some. Problem solved, and it always works. Far less distraction, especially for someone shooting a single pilot approach.

Keep it simple.
 
avbug said:
I

Moreover, I don't attempt to figure out what kind of entry to use, and don't teach a student to do that either. Whatever looks right for the entry is what gets used. Calculations over.



Keep it simple.

Check Pilot:Thank you Miss F. You may turn aruond, get the atis and go back to Melbourne.

Me: Huh??

Check Pilot: Yes, we generally use standard teardrop entry for that type of pattern.

Me: Well, that looked right....and avbug said....

Check Pilot: Well although avbug said....Wait! Who is avbug?? AND anywya, yes it did look right, but here at the FAA we want you to jump through hoops. You must do everything by the book, in the most difficult and complicated manner. In the future you must use either parallel, direct or teardrop entry. Perhaps then you will be permitted to finsih your checkride.

Ali


Exaggeration...but you get the point :)
 
It's not that exaggerated

The real world is different. Avbug knows the real world well. I had my ATP examiner show me and made me execute a teardrop entry to holding that he cooked up after I opted, correctly, for parallel. I knew of an instructor who came up with a teardrop type of procedure turn instead of the FAA standard procedure turn to 45 degrees, go out one minute, reverse and intercept the inbound, etc.

Look at your Instrument PTS. It quotes as references the AIM and Instrument Flying Handbook. Also, IAPs. FAA pubs are the FAA's last word on the procedures should be followed. Although the examiner might think it should be done differently, or you think it should be done differently, or your instructor thinks it should be done differently, the examiner has to pass you if you did it by the book and to standards.

So many people get in pi$$ing contests over how they do things as opposed to the "book." The book is always right, if not the best or easiest way. Just do it by the book and get your rating.
 
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holding

Two suggestions...

1) Have your student do some holds not under the hood on a vfr day when you can see the VOR. It makes a lot more sense to students when they can see outside, see the VOR, and see how everything looks. It will probably solve his trouble with situational awareness.

2) It really doesn't matter what kind of entry you do. The FAA has recommended procedures. Not required, just explain what the protected side of the hold is, and why you should stay there.
 

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