furloughees going to regionals

avi8tr

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Hey you guy's,

You know all this talk about the "major" furloughees that are out on the street and looking for flying jobs. It seems to me that if I were applying for work, and the interviewing company asked me to resign my seniority number, I would walk away as fast as I could. I mean, it's a no brainer right, I mean, the bottom line is for most of us to get on with a major airline someday right.And once your'e hired, that seniority number means everything. A furlough is just a temporary thing. I know, some will get laid off again subsequently, but the job is worth the effort. I have been in this business 17 years and I can tell you that alot of these Captains that are flying these widebodies (making 200k) have been at least once in thier career, out on the street furloughed. It just comes with this very economically sensitive business that wer'e in. My suggestion for all you guy's that have been cut loose for the short term, apply with the fractionals, they are growing, and have nice equipment. Give the others a chance to get thier seniority number, so that they too, can one day be furloughed.

Signed,

waiting to be hired...
 

pappy

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avi8tr-

You may be opening up a can of worms here. I read your ALG interview post and it sounds like you're upset that you may not be offered a position there while one of the disgruntled furloughed pilots may. Is this the case?

You mentioned that furloughed pilots shouldn't apply to carriers that require one to resign seniority. Everyone's case is different. I am furloughed from USAirways and have been looking for a job since I knew the furloughs were coming. I have not applied to any carriers that require me to resign from USAirways. Not just yet. I have a small amount of hope that I'll be called back in the not to distant future. But, I'm becoming to realize that this may not be the case. The last time USAirways furloughed, early nineties, it took 7-8 years before the pilots were all called back. Right now, some of those pilots are scheduled to be furloughed again. The way USAirways management is running this airline, the chances of any recalls in a timely period is very remote. They've gotten rid of approx. 100 aircraft and are scheduled to furlough a total of 1350 pilots. Management has even admitted in the media that they are using 9/11 to their advantage and restructuring the airline. The furloughed USAirways pilots are probably in little different boat then the other furloughees. I believe that quite a few have and are willing to give up that all important sen. number. As time goes on, more and more will do the same. Maybe if you worked for Delta, American or a few others, then you could feel a little better about your chances of coming back.

About going to the fractionals. Exec Jet is probably doing the most hiring right now. I have a comploeted application sitting on my desk at home. I haven't mailed it because they require you to resign your seniority number. So it's just not the airlines or regionals that are requiring this. I'm sure that a lot of companies are following this policy or not even looking at furloughees. So now what?

Why should I turn down a job so that you can get that all important number? It kinda hit me wrong after I read your message this morning. You know what?, I have been offered a job at Allegheny. I used to work there and gave up 8 years seniority to chase my dream of going to a major airline. Looks like I'll be going back and flying with my old FOs who are now Captains. And you know what, I'm happy to have a job. Sorry if I took your position but I have to look out for my family.

Good luck and hopefully everyone will obtain their dreams someday. Just remember that once you think that everything is great and you have that warm and cozy feeling, look out.

pappy
 

Bluto

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Pappy,
I don't think you should have to apologize for taking a job that you are more than qualified to hold. I'm afraid that sometimes frustration about the state of the industry is taken out on the nearest available target. In this case, 'those stinkin', greedy, major pilots who just want to come down and steal my regional job, just because they can!' seem to be the most readily available target. With over 8,000 hours you should never have to apologize for taking an available job. Good luck.
 

JetProp

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Pappy,
Piedmont is hiring furloughed Airways pilots. They do let you keep your U seniority #, however, I understand a two year commitment is required. Good luckl!
Regards, JP
 

Humblepilot

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Legal?

Not to start a fight or bring out the amateur lawyers, but do you think its legal for USAIR Express Carriers that are hiring furloughees to only ask non USAIR furloughees for their seniority numbers.

Humble
 

Lindy

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Amateur Lawyer Time....

This is a more interesting discussion than the last issue about "not being interviewed because of furloughed status/recall rights."

Once again, what is the complaint? As a condition of employment, the company asks for seniority resignation, except from Carrier X. Since there isn't any protection oferred to furloughees (at this time) which would permit the hiring company to abstain from this position, then why not?

Since the USAir/Piedmont/Allegheny discussion is involved, doesn't the same holding/parent company own all three?

Arguably, it isn't "fair" but until there is some type of legislation or a very creative attorney that can state a claim upon which relief can be granted (and survive motions), then we will continue to have these discussions about legality/discrimination with respect to furlough status. It's legal to consider furloughees in a different light than non-furloughees.
 

publisher

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Shades of Gray

Whether or not they state they will take a furloughee, the question is, "are they in fact taking them".

The question is, within Federal Statue, does the company, any company, have the right to determine who they hire and what the conditions of employment are.

Secondly, think about it from this perspective. While many of those hired may aspire to the majors,,,, believe it or not some do not,,, the ones with a number are sure to go. If I can find acceptable personnel who do not have a number, why not go with them. The fact is that it may be some time before non numbered pilots have a major job offer.

As to the USAir situation. In that case, has not an arrangement been made between the mainline carrier and its regional to cover something that works for both of them.

In history, all the furlough periods mentioned, many of the pilots furloughed were put into an obsure gray zone where no one would hire them for full employment.
 

turbo potato

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For what its worth, I was furloughed by Delta and my old US AIR Express company hired me back without giving my number up
 

Humblepilot

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Remind me though, PSA USAir Express isn't wholy owned.

Humble

BTW Congrats, happy for you
 

Jeff G

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Humble - PSA is wholly-owned.

Potato - Have we met? Give me an IM.
 

avi8tr

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my post about furloghees going regional

Hey you guy's,

Pappy I'm really really glad that you got that Allegheny job. I don't have near the hours that you have and you should have that job. No I'm not upset that I have not been called yet, my interview went extremely well, and I couldn't of done any better preparing for it. I was just taken a back by some of the behaviour that I and a few other fellows witnessed in that exam room. I mean just be grateful that we were called and given the opportunity to sell our flying skills. I know that some carriers are going to call back sooner than others, and USAirways may not for a few years. I have a few good friends with USAir that are also looking for jobs, and I have pointed Allegheny, and Piedmont their way. It's a frustrating time for all of us, since we thought that prior to 9/11 the hiring would continue and we would all be happily flying and building our future foundations. By the way, I did not realize that some of the fractionals would require a termination of seniority. Anyway, I think it's important to keep up a good dialog about every issue, and look at the overall big picture.

Good luck to all, and happy flying!
 

pappy

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avi8tr-

What you witnessed during your ALG is a requirement for any aspiring airline pilot. You have to be good at whining and complaining. No matter how good things are, there's always something to complain about. They teach you this during basic indoc.

Seriously, sorry that you came away from the interview with a bad taste in your mouth. The disgruntled furloughees should have been happy that they were given the chance to obtain a flying job. If they weren't serious about working for ALG, then they shouldn't have been there. Good luck and practice that whining, you'll have to use it someday.

pappy;)
 

750driver

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Hi Avi8tr,

I just noticed your post where you stated ...

" By the way, I did not realize that some of the fractionals would require a termination of seniority. "

As much as I don't like it, certain fractionals are requiring the furloughees to resign their numbers. The only comment I wanted to make is this, while I don't like it, I do understand why. From a business perspective, they spend a serious amount of money to train their pilots. While training at the FSI facility in Wichita, I heard the FSI rep say that our Citation X course was approximately 28K for the full service package. I'm not sure what is included in that, but I do know that lesser options were 20k plus (per person).

I guess my point is this ... even though quantity is discounted, these business jet programs ARE very expensive. The company has to be assured that a pilot will stay, at least 1 year, in order to recover the investment.

Best wishes to all those on furlough :)

Xjet
 

Humblepilot

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Hey Xjet,

Then why not just create a training contract (please let's not start a training contract fight..lol ) for the training costs for furloughees that don't want to give up their seniority numbers.

Fly safe
Humble
 

avi8tr

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Furloughees going to regionals

Hi Again,

I want to thank all who have responded to my thread regarding furloughees going back to regionals without termination of seniority number.

First off, let me just say that I think it is a difficult situation no matter where you are sitting. For those that are on furlough, it is tough to have to start all over again in a way. Especially if you are given the request to give up the "number". But on the other hand I agree that training someone to get current on a new a/c is very cost prohibitive, and in this new economic climate I understand why the airlines(regional/fractionals) are playing hardball. I guess it is really up to the indivudual circumstance that one has to make their own decision based upon current needs, etc...

But speaking for myself, I got the preverbial letter today, stating that I did not the get the ALG job, because of other more qualified applicants. Even though I had an almost perfect interview (at least I thought it was) experience.

But I don't have sour grapes about it, after 9/11 everything really did change, and wer'e right back to the early nineties where almost no one was hiring, and everyone was applying. I'm just going to keep applying and never give up, because it is a personal milestone for me.

Anyway, thanks for the correspondence, and for those that got hired, good luck and fly safe.

Your friend,

av8ter
 

turbo potato

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Hey Av....sorry to hear about the letter...but my advice to you is to take every interview as a learning experience..so when the big one comes..you won't be nervous..and it will be a walk in the park...this is a hard time in the buisness like you said..its just a matter of time....the way mainline is downsizing...every commuter will be hiring shortly..just be patient.


god luck

potato
 

skydiverdriver

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Piedmont, Allegheny and PSA are the three wholly-owned USAirways regionals. They also contract with Chataqua, Mesa, and a few others. I used to work for one, but I think Mesa bought most of them.

I'm wondering why some regional pilots want furloughees to give up their major number. I can understand why they want them to start at the bottom, because that effects them, but why do they care about whether they go back to Delta or not? Just a curious question, I'm not trying to start anything, honest.
 

Marko Ramius

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skydiverdriver said:
I'm wondering why some regional pilots want furloughees to give up their major number. I can understand why they want them to start at the bottom, because that effects them, but why do they care about whether they go back to Delta or not? Just a curious question, I'm not trying to start anything, honest.
Yipee! I was waiting for a regional pilot to ask the same question, I have been wondering about for a while. Why do some regional pilots care about the seniority number issue if the pilots go in at the bottom and are treated like any other new hire? The answers I've gotten thus far have been a rehash of management's reasons for wanting resignations, which most of us understand, but I don't know why the line pilots would care about managements reasons. When I was at a regional, we had pilots come over from other airlines, some were even furloughees who had retained their numbers, but they came in at the bottom and the whole thing didn't bother me one bit. Oh well, I think this issue will be moot one way or another in about 3-5 months.
 

avi8tr

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Furloughees going to regionals

This is a reply to Marko and others,

The big reason that SOME regionals want a termination of seniority from the furloughed carrier is uncertainty. The few carriers that are hiring are still affected by the national slowdown in air travel. This of course affects their bottom line, and naturally some of this money goes to training. Since we all know how much money it costs to get a new pilot up to speed, they want a return on that investment by having those pilots stay awhile. Prior to 9/11 no one really cared, because there was a supposed pilot shortage, or to some other degree more of a market. Look at what happened to Executive Jet, they supposedly trained a bunch of Comair pilots who got expensive jet training only to have them perform an exodus when recalled. Some carriers like Colgan, make you sign a two year training contract and are very adamant about making sure you abide. Do I agree with this policy? I don't know. Like I said before, it would depend on one's own personal situation. As for me, I'm still fortunate that I am still employed with an airline (non flying)and can be in on the latest rumor's. As for flying, I'm pounding out those resumes, and flying traffic reports.

Good luck,

Av8ter
 
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