Free First Officers!

[I.P. Freley]

You will note that I have made a pretty clear distinction between people who were PFT when it was more of the industry norm and people who are PFT NOW. There was a time in the recent past that you simply couldn't get a job without 3000hrs, often much more than that.

These people today... Well... There are jobs out there that you don't have to pay for. I don't know why anyone would have to do it these days. I know two people who have gotten airline jobs this year with no prior airline experience of any kind. I know one more who never flew for a 121 carrier (furloughed after ground school) and found ANOTHER job. There are others that I know of that have found new jobs after being furloughed from another carrier (including myself, though I was lucky enough to get a RAISE). Most of these individuals have under 1500hrs.

I really don't see why anyone in the current climate should need to buy a job. Just go teach, tow a banner, do whatever... How long does it take to make it to 1200 hours, anyway? A year? There's little excuse to go running for a PFT job today if you have 500hrs. Just be patient and get the time some other way. Even post-9/11, the jobs are there for the taking.

 

[Skaz]

PFT must burn?

Gidday all, hello from the other side of the planet.
Being a ppruner,I have never posted on this site before and was surprised at the liveliness of this thread. Came here looking for info re Eagle Jet and ASG and such ops…..what I found was something else.

Lets start this fight off on a high note. I am looking into doing a ‘course’ with Eagle or ASG or somebody similar……………..ok, boys let rip.

Before any of you winging bastards call me a whore, let me explain where I’m coming from. Then you can call me anything you want.

I am qualified FSO and am studying for Bscdegree with ERAU correspondence, have 2450TT, >700ME, >550Turbine, >400Night, >100IFR, been flying In Southern Africa., commercially for 5 years and in total since second year of high school. First job was flying an Islander at a game lodge near Kruger National Park in Mpumalanga province in RSA, then got a job flying C06 in Okavango Delta in Botswana, after more than one year of C206 poling, got promoted to C210, then few months later onto company’s BN2…few years of that and moved to Namibia, flying C210, C310, C401, C402, C208, F406, part135 and 138 (medevac).
We have to pay for ALL or training in this company. ALL of it, whether it be an annual flight test (you pay for examiner and a/c), or type rating on new a/c. Is that wrong, Pilots think so, Management doesn’t….so you don’t like it, you can leave, there’s plenty of pilots looking for jobs.
Now, after 5 years of flying charters in the African bush, freight flights of 8 – 9 hours per night for weeks on end, and medevacs where road landing on dirt roads in front of farm houses in the mountains leaves you shaking with adrenalin for 5 – 10 minutes…..I have had anough and want to move on……

So…..will anybody object if I pay for rating on C172…..or buy 50hour block of TOT, ? No…then how ‘bout going to say….Flightsafety and paying for Lear rating…..then paying for 100 hour block at Eagle Jet…..or a B737 rating somewhere else and paying for another block of 250 hours on that?

Then when I have these hours nicely logged in my logbook, applying to Netjets or Medjets or somebody that requires a type rating and 100 hours on type. Where’s the wrong in that?

I don’t see what the problem in that is. You guys in the USA so easily forget that for almost all pilots this side of the planet the US is flying Utopia. You have EVERYTHING over there. Here there are 3 majors to fly for…. South African Airways, wants 6000hours with Multi crew multi jet experience, yeah right I’ll just ask the Genie in the bottle quickly…BA/Comair wants 2000hours, the only BIG airline over here that is reasonable with req is Nationwide: 1500TT with ATP subjects passed…. the smaller airlines all want higher hours than that.
There are scores and scores of fresh comm. pilots looking to get on with ANY outfit.
We have had in one week, TWO individuals that offered to fly for free…..and management put them on the line !!!! Suffice to say they got a very cold shoulder and left after a week. This is the desperation over here. If you can afford to pay the thousands of dollars needed to get a B737 rating and get hours on it…it puts you ahead of the competition when you apply for a position with the majors here. So why not do it.
What counts is your level of experience and TOT, amongst other things, in THE interview.

You have to look after number 1, nobody else will. That’s as true and sad a fact as the myth of job security.

The people in the wrong here, are the ones like Eagle Jet that offer your services for nothing, and the companies that takes them up on the offer. If you at least got paid a retainer it wouldn’t be so bad.

I have built my hours the long hard way, I do not feel that I am doing something wrong if I pay for a type rating on a Lear or B737 and TOT, if it’ll help secure a position down the line. If a company says, pay us USD xxx and we’ll give you a job, otherwise well hire some bloke outta the pool, and you do it…knowing that the guy you put out is more qualified than you, has been flying for longer and the same type of ops as you, thus is in line for the wheel to turn before you…then you could be labeled as wrong.

This is a very complicated issue with many facets, there are as many points of view, be they right or wrong, as there are people that have an opinion on the matter.

I do however have to say I agree with posters such as Nedude, OspreyFE and IPFreley…..careful who you call a whore, he might be on the panel sometime down the line, or your next DE.

 

[LittleDeuce]

US Pilots

Skaz My friend we also have over here, tons of American pilots out of work.

 

[Skaz]

there's pilots outta work everywhere

 

[A Squared]

Skaz,


How is it that you can see how reprehensible it is for someone to offer to do your job at your outfit for free, yet you seem to be unable to see that it would be equally reprehensible for you to do exactly the same thing ... well not "exactly" the same, you'd actually be *paying* to take a job, not just doing it for free.

are you really this dense?

 

[Skaz]

dense...that a new one, thanks for the insult

I think a little info has been left out.
This referrs to the company that you go and fly with if you do pay for TOT. If pilots pay for a FO position for x Hours, and then leave the company, to be replaced by somebody else doing the same thing...etc etc, then its obviously the way the company does bussiness. Then I do not think you are taking anybody's job. You got the slot you bought and afterwards you are out. The company obviously has incorporated this into their operations and is using 'hour building', qualified pilots in temporary (call it contract) positions. View this as 'training' that you have paid for.

If you then get hired by a DIFFERENT company from the one you did the 'course' at, and you did not pay for the position, you surely have been hired based on your qualifications and experience. Whats wrong with that? Whats the difference between that and having buil the hours over the past 5 years flying for your previous employer?
The playing field cannot be more level than that.

If you pay or buy your way into a 'full time' position in a company and in so doing put someone out of a job, yeah that is , as you put it, reprehensible.

Dont get me wrong, working for free is b#ullsh!t, I would never do it and would do my utmost to remove anybody like that in my company.

 

[PCL_128]

Years ago I told myself that I would never pay for a flying job or invest in something just for the flying. I have ferried a friend's airplane for free but I had personal intrest along the way that I visited. I have done some missionary flying for free but that was expected, the same as putting money in the offering plate at church. It has been a struggle sometimes but worth it in the long run.

I was going to stay out of this discussion because I think the whole PFT issue has been debated on here more than enough, but this high-and-mighty attitude from Turbo really got to me.

Turbo, many people on this board know that you are a SCAB, yet you think you can come on here and bash those that PFT? I PFT'd, and if all of you think it is so terrible, then so be it. But for a dirty SCAB to start criticizing people for PFTing is just plain ridiculous.

That's all for me on this discussion. I just wanted to point out the extreme hypocrisy.

 

[A Squared]

Yeah, dense, and after your last post I see that dense isn't really the adjective I was grasping for. I think "dishonest" is more approapriate, as I read the convoluted way in which you attempt to rationalize a differnce between someone doing your job for free and you doing someone elses' job for free.

in a rather transparent attempt at rationalization you say ".... its obviously the way the company does bussiness."

The same could be said for your company, if they "hire" timebuilders who want to fly for free then "....its obviously the way the company does bussiness (sic). ........The company obviously has incorporated this into their operations and is using 'hour building', qualified pilots in temporary (call it contract) positions"

Ohhhhh noooooo!!! wait!!!!, it's different when it's *MY* job being done for free ... umm yeah, sure pal. It's the same thing. A company needs employees to perform certain revenue producing tasks, and certain individuals offer to perform those tasks for free, or even to pay the company to allow them to perform them, through programs like Eagle jet.

Please, peddle your hypocricy elsewhere.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T, redux

Hey, I know a guy who want's a job as a flight instructor. Are there any schools out there that will pay for his training.
If not, I guess he will have to do like everyone else and PAY FOR HIS OWN TRAINING at someplace like Riddle or FSI, etc.

What's the difference?

Try applying this two-pronged test: (1) if you must remit cash to the company as a condition of employment and (2) if the training in question is company-specific and cannot be marketed to any entity outside of the company, then it is
P-F-T.

Ergo,

If I had an opening (and there none right now) I wouldn't consider anyone who did not have their appropriate type rating. I don't care how they got it, but I am not going to buy it for them. Now, if I upgrade them to a new airplane type the training will be paid for....in exchange for an 18 month pro-rated training agreement.

The distinction being that a type rating, FSI or SimuFlite card, etc. is a tangible credential which can be marketed to entities outside the company.

Therein lies the difference.

Therefore, paying money to a school to get your CFI is not
P-F-T. You can market your CFI most anywhere. Just run search of flight schools - someone here put up a comprehensive list sometime back - start the resume printing press and the postage meter going, and fire 'em off.

Hope that helps.

 

[AV8OR]

IP and anybody else who has PFT'd or is gonna PFT.

My two cents and nothing else. Here's where I draw the line. If someone wants to PFT, hey I'm a capitalist, you do what ya want and "what's best for you". But.....

I was a causalty of this PFT crap back in 1993. I had better than average flight time with about 500 SIC in jets at a F500 company when they shut down the flight dept. I had just gotten my ATP and was gonna have to make some pretty good sacrifices to make ends meet on a first year pay at ASA since I was getting married in five months. I only applied to one company, ASA, because other than AE, they were the ONLY, (that I know of), company that wasn't PFT, and AE wasn't hiring. So they call me in, do the interview, give me about 200 question "ethics" test and than call me and tell me I'm in and they'll let me know in a week when my class date is. In the mean time my instructor from AllATP's calls me and say's "Did ya hear, ASA is going PFT?" I said no way! But a week or two goes by and I'll be danged if when I call them they say, "Oh yes, we are now PFT, but since you have already been interviewed and been selected you won't have to pay the $600 screening fee you can just start class." I said, "You gotta be kidding, do you have any idea what that costs?" And she say's casually, "Yeah, I think it's around $10,000." I just kinda laughed and told her, that A. I'd be fool to spend 10K without getting a type, just to make 15K a year. B. That if I had 10K it would be a better investment to put it in their stock. And C. That I thought they had a lot of balls giving ME an ethics test and then backdooring me on the PFT after they had talked all about what THEIR PAY was during training and telling me I would get a class date in a week.

Meanwhile, the instructor over at ATP's went over to ASA and PFT'd right on up cause he was still living at home and dad said he pay for it.

That was it. I was out of aviation for the next three years and was astounded that the major ALPA unions didn't have a problem with it because of the potential problems they might see down the road with people who would pay for a job that didn't pay jack just so they could be an airline pilot. But, to each his own.

So now, fast forward to 2003. With any luck in the next year the major freight company I fly for will be hiring again and I, at some point am going to try and get a position helping interview and I'll just tell ya, if I can determine that a guy PFT'd I'm not gonna vote for him, I don't care if he's Chuck Friggin Yeager! For every PFTer who's gettin the job because he will, there's some more qualified pilot who's not gettin the job cause he won't.

So go on and PFT if you want. Yall have the right to make your decisions and I'll have the right to make mine.