Flying Blind: Deregulation reconsidered

CopilotDoug

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Done!
Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 3-4 times as many pilot’s jobs in 2005 as there was in 1977.
At much lower pay. In essence, you're saying "Spread the misery"
 

Birdstrike

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Why, in your opinion, shouldn't pilots make two or three hundred thousand dollars a year? Because you don't think that you're worth it!
Sure I do. And so does the public. But tha's not the issue. The exploitable issue has been the guy drooling to do your job for half the pay. And the next guy that will do it for half of that. Qualified guys too. That's the rub; after that disillusionment, we eat our young, pull up the ladder, and look out only for #1. It's easily exploitable and it has been and always will be as long as demand exceeds supply.
 

pilotyip

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Reality

Sure I do. And so does the public. But tha's not the issue. The exploitable issue has been the guy drooling to do your job for half the pay. And the next guy that will do it for half of that. Qualified guys too. That's the rub; after that disillusionment, we eat our young, pull up the ladder, and look out only for #1. It's easily exploitable and it has been and always will be as long as demand exceeds supply.
Hey this is FI, do not deal in reality, there must be someone to blame besides ourselfs
 

Midge

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So a flying management job such as Director of Standards is a management stooge?
No, it makes you a scumbag!

A guy who made less money than his line biddies with the same date of hire? A guy who likes flying airplanes and thinks this is a great way to make a living. Is that the guy you were talking about? BTW still livin the dream
Hey pilotdip, maybe you can send him one of those 2 page long boring PM's.
Go work for free moron. Scum like you are what's bringing down this industry.
 

relief tube

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True free market capitalism has not been allowed to exhibit itself and flourish. Bankrupcy courts (government oversight) have been very adept at keeping all the players on the field. As air carriers are being forced to compete with the "living dead", instead of happily expanding into the newly created/vacated marketplace, they instead find themselves competing on an evermore crowded playing field by contracting out domestic flying to regional operators (who hire at pittance wages). The result is that junior legacy carrier pilots are the ones being laid off and taking the fall. Is reregulation the answer??? Hardly. Let deregulation and free markets work as intended.
the architect of regulation himself (forgot his name) said that it hasn't worked. He was a bureaucrat that didn't understand the many endemic forces involved in this industry.

What do you want? United and Airways to fail so Airtran and JetBlue flourish? Then everyone'd still be able to fly to orlando for $119 roundtrip and average pilot salaries and salaries would be half of what they were 15 years ago. That sounds like fun.

Capitalism can't flourish in an industry where the main labor force is at the mercy of just needing to have and keep their job, or else they have to start all over again. There's always a race to the bottom then. It's like the manufacturing industry, except all the factory workers don't live in china. They're here.
 

pilotyip

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Al Kann

the architect of regulation himself (forgot his name) said that it hasn't worked. He was a bureaucrat that didn't understand the many endemic forces involved in this industry.
Albert Kann professor of Econ at Cornell. Friend of Jimmy Carter. BTW What is the solution, except returning to regulation with all of its down sides?
 

AC560

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Doctors ..... they can move ANYWHERE in their profession for the same OR HIGHER pay. Same goes for Lawyers. How we can NOT be thought of in the same compay
The same can be said for corporate pilots and other pilot groups not associated with collective bargaining agreements. Bus drivers belong to a union, Doctors belong to an association. If you want to be treated as a professional get a job were you are rewarded on the merits of your contributions to the company and not you seniority number.
 

acpilot

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Flying is still a great way to make a living, pilots are not doctor's, if you want to be treated like a doctor finish med school, pilots are not wall street CEO's, if you want ot be a wall street CEO, get into one the top 10 MBA's school. You are pilot you fly airplanes, if you like doing that you are probably happy. If not you are in the wrong line of work.


It is what it is.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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Albert Kann professor of Econ at Cornell. Friend of Jimmy Carter. BTW What is the solution, except returning to regulation with all of its down sides?
Translation: After days pass, I haven't bothered to read the presentation paper, but I still want to be taken seriously.....
 

pilotyip

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Wtf?

Translation: After days pass, I haven't bothered to read the presentation paper, but I still want to be taken seriously.....
What does that mean, I answering the question on who was the author of de-reg.
 
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CopilotDoug

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Done!
What does that mean, I answering the question on who was the author of de-reg.
CoAuthor of the Bill was Ted Kennedy. He did it to help the working man...because that's what he is...and that's who he cares about (Sorry pilots...you're just a bunch of over paid prima donnas...you can afford to give until it hurts)

Up next: Cap and Trade!
 

igneousy2

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There is a lot we can learn from Doctors and lawyers and I am sorry some of you don't think that being a pilot is every bit about being a profesional as either of these other two.

It turns out we can learn a lot about what to do by looking at these two groups doctors and lawyers and there associations...the American Bar Association (union for lawyers) and the American Medical Association (union for doctors). This also gives us a good lesson on supply and demand.

The big mistake ALPA has made, and continues to make is that we have had no interest in certifying pilots. This is important because it controls the supply of pilots.

Why do many lawyers and doctors make so much damn money-because there really aren't that many of them in comparrison to the demand (in addition to not being incumbered by seniority list). Over the years ALPA has allowed these pilot puppy mills to come into existence and to thrive. We have also allowed the FAA to set the bar so low as far as pilot standards. We've also helped the airlines by allowing the line that "if it's legal it's safe". We should have been profesing how valuable experience is on the flight deck. Instead we've been more concerned with offending members then protecting the proffesion.

Meanwhile the ABA and the AMA have contiually had a strangle hold on how many ABA or AMA approved law schools there are. Go to any states website for certification as a lawyer or a doctor and you will see that state law in most states REQUIRE you to be a graduate of an ABA or AMA approved school. That's would be the same as the FAA stating that a pilot must be a graduate of an ALPA approved flight school.

Also know that with as many lawyers as this country has there are only 200 places that you can go to become one. That is only 4 per state. There are only 125 accredited medical schools. 2.5 per state. How many flight schools do we have per state?

The other beautiful thing these associations have done is to make the entry into their profesion a high level degree. Medical doctors and Juris Doctors. You may laugh and say that it has always been this way but it hasn't...especially with lawyers. When Lincoln became a lawyer there was no such thing as an ABA accredited law school. In the begginning of the 20th century the basic way to become a lawyer or a doctor was to apprentice...just like carpenters or plumbers.

Imagine this scenario...ALPA sets the minimum standard on what it takes to become an airline pilot. 3 year Post-Bach program with a very rigid program that is only available at a handful of colleges. Only a few hundred graduate every year. The only way to be an airline pilot is to have graduated from one of these schools. What do you think our wages would be? A newly trained doctor expects to make between 100K-140K there first year out of medical school. A new pilot...flies for free?...gotta get that multi-time.

I admit we may have missed the boat on the accreditation of flight schools, however, I think that ALPA needs to do is to accredit airlines based on rest rules, experience of crews, etc. Once we accredit one airline then we launch a huge advertising campaign for that airline...We let that airline print the ALPA seal on every ticket it sells and in any marketing it does...then the other airlines come crawling.


Anyway, I can dream. ALPA's strategy going forward seems to be "if we all wish hard enough things will go back to the way it was before."

Later
 
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pilotyip

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Just like re-reg

It turns out we can learn a lot about what to do by looking at these two groups doctors and lawyers and there associations...the American Bar Association (union for lawyers) and the American Medical Association (union for doctors). This also gives us a good lesson on supply and demand.Later
This would be great for a few, most likely a real boom to military pilots. However for the other 66% of the pilot population it would have a real downside. Lets make it simplier, you must have a 30 ACT or a 1300 SAT to get an ATP certiifcate, no college required. That would eliminate a lot of the pilot population right there. Because of the higher costs, there would be fewer riders and the industry would shrink.
 

Midge

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Translation: After days pass, I haven't bothered to read the presentation paper, but I still want to be taken seriously.....
It's most likely because he can't read. I'm sure you'll get one of his 2 page love letters explaining how the industry wasn't fair to him, but he'll gladly work for free cause he's "living the dream."
 

Flopgut

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There is a lot we can learn from Doctors and lawyers and I am sorry some of you don't think that being a pilot is every bit about being a profesional as either of these other two.

It turns out we can learn a lot about what to do by looking at these two groups doctors and lawyers and there associations...the American Bar Association (union for lawyers) and the American Medical Association (union for doctors). This also gives us a good lesson on supply and demand.

The big mistake ALPA has made, and continues to make is that we have had no interest in certifying pilots. This is important because it controls the supply of pilots.

Why do many lawyers and doctors make so much damn money-because there really aren't that many of them in comparrison to the demand (in addition to not being incumbered by seniority list). Over the years ALPA has allowed these pilot puppy mills to come into existence and to thrive. We have also allowed the FAA to set the bar so low as far as pilot standards. We've also helped the airlines by allowing the line that "if it's legal it's safe". We should have been profesing how valuable experience is on the flight deck. Instead we've been more concerned with offending members then protecting the proffesion.

Meanwhile the ABA and the AMA have contiually had a strangle hold on how many ABA or AMA approved law schools there are. Go to any states website for certification as a lawyer or a doctor and you will see that state law in most states REQUIRE you to be a graduate of an ABA or AMA approved school. That's would be the same as the FAA stating that a pilot must be a graduate of an ALPA approved flight school.

Also know that with as many lawyers as this country has there are only 200 places that you can go to become one. That is only 4 per state. There are only 125 accredited medical schools. 2.5 per state. How many flight schools do we have per state?

The other beautiful thing these associations have done is to make the entry into their profesion a high level degree. Medical doctors and Juris Doctors. You may laugh and say that it has always been this way but it hasn't...especially with lawyers. When Lincoln became a lawyer there was no such thing as an ABA accredited law school. In the begginning of the 20th century the basic way to become a lawyer or a doctor was to apprentice...just like carpenters or plumbers.

Imagine this scenario...ALPA sets the minimum standard on what it takes to become an airline pilot. 3 year Post-Bach program with a very rigid program that is only available at a handful of colleges. Only a few hundred graduate every year. The only way to be an airline pilot is to have graduated from one of these schools. What do you think our wages would be? A newly trained doctor expects to make between 100K-140K there first year out of medical school. A new pilot...flies for free?...gotta get that multi-time.

I admit we may have missed the boat on the accreditation of flight schools, however, I think that ALPA needs to do is to accredit airlines based on rest rules, experience of crews, etc. Once we accredit one airline then we launch a huge advertising campaign for that airline...We let that airline print the ALPA seal on every ticket it sells and in any marketing it does...then the other airlines come crawling.


Anyway, I can dream. ALPA's strategy going forward seems to be "if we all wish hard enough things will go back to the way it was before."

Later
I like how you're thinking!

What could be accomplished if ALPA formed a training department? Start buying sims, put the furloughed and retired to work, keep everybody current with annual ALPA trng above and beyond basic reqd trng. We've certainly got the expertise. Let's merchandise this part of our careers and get paid for contract training, affiliate with manufacturers and formulate training programs for specific new aircraft. Eventually we'll control the traning. Thoughts?
 

pilotyip

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This will add cost

I like how you're thinking!

What could be accomplished if ALPA formed a training department? Start buying sims, put the furloughed and retired to work, keep everybody current with annual ALPA trng above and beyond basic reqd trng. We've certainly got the expertise. Let's merchandise this part of our careers and get paid for contract training, affiliate with manufacturers and formulate training programs for specific new aircraft. Eventually we'll control the traning. Thoughts?
If its adds cost, it will reduce the number of seats sold. Any change that increases costs will good for a few and not do good for many more. If you are the few, it will be a good deal. If you are not the few, too bad, stuff happens.
 

Lear70

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This would be great for a few, most likely a real boom to military pilots. However for the other 66% of the pilot population it would have a real downside. Lets make it simplier, you must have a 30 ACT or a 1300 SAT to get an ATP certiifcate, no college required. That would eliminate a lot of the pilot population right there. Because of the higher costs, there would be fewer riders and the industry would shrink.
No offense, but I don't really give a D*MN who it would be unfair to. They don't like it? Too bad, go sell used cars for a living.

I'm not interested in entitlement. I'm not interested in those who aren't willing to put in the HARD WORK required to obtain their career goals. I don't really give a RAT'S A$$ if people suddenly are disqualified for the position and have to return to school to GET qualified. Too bad, so sad, suck it up, cupcake.

The fix is going to be painful. It doesn't matter whether it's re-regulation, COMPLETE ABANDONMENT OF ANY REGULATION from the government so airlines will FAIL if they can't make it on their own, or whether we make the route to become a pilot as difficult as becoming an attorney or doctor and, therefore, stifle supply to the point airlines can't operate at the same capacity as they do now.

Seats need to come out of the market. Period. However you accomplish that is going to result in loss of flying jobs. That's going to be painful for a lot of us, maybe myself included, but I've never shied away from painful choices to do my part to help fix the industry. I have no sympathy for someone who isn't willing to do their part, even if it hurts for a while.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
 

Flopgut

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If its adds cost, it will reduce the number of seats sold. Any change that increases costs will good for a few and not do good for many more. If you are the few, it will be a good deal. If you are not the few, too bad, stuff happens.
I think we could do it and lower costs. Just got to get creative.
 

pilotyip

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How?

I think we could do it and lower costs. Just got to get creative.
How would you lower costs while increasing wages and reducing productivity?
 
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