Fears and Visions

jonjuan

Honey Ryder
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
Posts
4,155
Total Time
3,000+
Not necessarily. International Red Label is an alter ego. It’s a separate entity flown by out of seniority pilots with certain privileges that not everyone else enjoys. 121 or not, the effect to the rank and file is the same.
So the global and gulf streams aren’t being flown by pilots based on seniority?
 

cougar12

Unite Brothers & Sisters
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Posts
136
Total Time
9000
No, You have to apply, then they interview in senority order but they still select who they want. They are suppose to let you know why you were not selected so you can dispute the decision or work on your short coming(s). The program is a sham it is a way around the contract at this point in time.
 

justmeinmsp

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2003
Posts
154
Total Time
8000
Yeah, I never even got the courtesy of a fake call with any consideration. I was simply passed over and had 30 Options transfers, junior to me, who were placed as captain on those aircraft.
 

TexasChallenger

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2015
Posts
78
Total Time
13,000
So the global and gulf streams aren’t being flown by pilots based on seniority?
Absolutely not. Cougar nailed it. It was originally intended for Ricci’s Flight Options groupies to be rewarded on the Flexjet side of the house. Eventually, the judge or arbitrator, I forget which, ruled it had to be 50/50 between Flexjet and Flight Options pilots with no more than a 60/40 split. Then it morphed into more what Cougar described. It’s amazing that Handschuch and all the company water toters are up in arms over SLI but in Ricci’s world, which they support, seniority doesn’t matter. They’re upset over SLI because it was done by the Union, and for no other reason. KW told me once that 60% of Flexjet pilots had their percentage get better. That’s pretty good. But now the company is pushing for DOH. Go figure.
 

Bjtdrvr

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Posts
180
Total Time
10000
That is because they feel that they already have a majority of the flexjet vote. All they can really offer FO pilots is date of hire since the sli is still in arbitration or if the union goes away they can change it at will.
 

rajflyboy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Posts
1,797
Total Time
17500
Not necessarily. International Red Label is an alter ego. It’s a separate entity flown by out of seniority pilots with certain privileges that not everyone else enjoys. 121 or not, the effect to the rank and file is the same.
you got pretty much the same thing going on over at the mother ship after the merger with Savannah although not as widely spread
 

EnFuego

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Posts
125
That is because they feel that they already have a majority of the flexjet vote. All they can really offer FO pilots is date of hire since the sli is still in arbitration or if the union goes away they can change it at will.
They got a bunch of those votes from guys like el raton who are pissed about the SLI. But management's date of hire argument to the arbitrator will staple him and them to the bottom of the list instead of integrating them as they are now. But these guys continue to cut their own throats by voting to let management do anything they want...
 

TexasChallenger

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2015
Posts
78
Total Time
13,000
Since single carrier status was granted nearly three ago, seniority list and integration is still required to follow Allegheny-Mohawk and McCaskill-Bond. Even though the company may rip apart the SLI, it still has to be “fair and equitable” to under federal law.
 

Hogprint

If you aint Cav...
Joined
Apr 16, 2002
Posts
684
Total Time
6000
what does SCOPE get you?

1. Loss of seniority on the seniority list.
2. Unequal basing system.
3. Captain upgrades out of seniority.

Should I continue ?
Please do. Those three were a function of bringing us all in the fold. It was an arranged marriage at best but like the song says, “find a woman and you’ll find love”...

It will take years to right the wrongs but already #3 is taking care of itself. It just takes time. Number 2 possibly will be off your list when the EMT & NJASAP hash out these issues as possible QOL issues. As for #1, please show us any seniority list merger that didn’t ruffle feather on both sides...
 

rajflyboy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Posts
1,797
Total Time
17500
Please do. Those three were a function of bringing us all in the fold. It was an arranged marriage at best but like the song says, “find a woman and you’ll find love”...

It will take years to right the wrongs but already #3 is taking care of itself. It just takes time. Number 2 possibly will be off your list when the EMT & NJASAP hash out these issues as possible QOL issues. As for #1, please show us any seniority list merger that didn’t ruffle feather on both sides...
I didn’t vote for the balogny. And now the company is actually the one fixing the basing inequality

whole merger has been a joke for the Cmh side

it was a one side “Get All” deal from the start
 

Hogprint

If you aint Cav...
Joined
Apr 16, 2002
Posts
684
Total Time
6000
I didn’t vote for the balogny. And now the company is actually the one fixing the basing inequality

whole merger has been a joke for the Cmh side

it was a one side “Get All” deal from the start
I won’t necessarily disagree w the “get all” but how in your opinion how has it been a joke for the CMH side? I still feel it was the right move for several reasons, and I sympathize with the people who put their faith in RS, but in the end even he saw light.
 

Hogprint

If you aint Cav...
Joined
Apr 16, 2002
Posts
684
Total Time
6000
I didn’t vote for the balogny. And now the company is actually the one fixing the basing inequality

whole merger has been a joke for the Cmh side

it was a one side “Get All” deal from the start
You got me to think’n about the merge...so I went back and dredged up some old threads from ‘06 time frame when this issue was hashed ad nauseam on this forum.

This is from “Gv starting pay” thread circa Jun ‘06. The original poster was CastOfThousands...I’ll let you guess who he was :)

[/QUOTE]”From a Union perspective this is quite simple; let a third party make a determination, or take it into the bargaining arena. Nobody around here thinks RTS is stupid, but it would be safe to assume the Union leadership is aware of all the alternatives as well.

If NetJets Aviation, Inc. elects to restructure for preemptive single carrier determination purposes, the Union will respond in kind.

We have agreed to allow a third party determination under the status quo as written in the Letter of Agreement. We can either allow for that to occur under the status quo, or both sides can use alternative methods.

The most important components to remember are 1) the LOA that provides NJA pilots opportunities at NJI never expires, not even after a single carrier determination is made, 2) a single carrier petition can be filed on a reoccurring basis, if one NMB rules in favor of the company then next NMB may like the Union's arguments, and 3) the Union can file the petition in 2.5 years, meanwhile bargaining will commence in 3.5 years.

The Union agreed to a 3 year NJI stay because this NMB's term ends after the '08 election. The next NMB will more than likely be making the determination. Even more significantly, the majority of the pilots on the NetJets Aviation, Inc. Pilots Seniority List will need to be willing to accept the NMB's determination during the ratification process of the next Tentative Agreement.

I don't believe this issue will ever be addressed from a "snap shot" perspective. This would only lead one to conclude the longer this issue persists, the more contentious it will become. In other words, intelligent people who have the company's overall best interests in mind should sit down and resolve the issue in a fair and mutually equitable manner. In the event this does not occur, only time will tell.

Respectfully,’[/QUOTE]
 
Last edited:

rajflyboy

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Posts
1,797
Total Time
17500
You got me to think’n about the merge...so I went back and dredged up some old threads from ‘06 time frame when this issue was hashed ad nauseam on this forum.

This is from “Gv starting pay” thread circa Jun ‘06. The original poster was CastOfThousands...I’ll let you guess who he was :)

[/QUOTE]”From a Union perspective this is quite simple; let a third party make a determination, or take it into the bargaining arena. Nobody around here thinks RTS is stupid, but it would be safe to assume the Union leadership is aware of all the alternatives as well.

If NetJets Aviation, Inc. elects to restructure for preemptive single carrier determination purposes, the Union will respond in kind.

We have agreed to allow a third party determination under the status quo as written in the Letter of Agreement. We can either allow for that to occur under the status quo, or both sides can use alternative methods.

The most important components to remember are 1) the LOA that provides NJA pilots opportunities at NJI never expires, not even after a single carrier determination is made, 2) a single carrier petition can be filed on a reoccurring basis, if one NMB rules in favor of the company then next NMB may like the Union's arguments, and 3) the Union can file the petition in 2.5 years, meanwhile bargaining will commence in 3.5 years.

The Union agreed to a 3 year NJI stay because this NMB's term ends after the '08 election. The next NMB will more than likely be making the determination. Even more significantly, the majority of the pilots on the NetJets Aviation, Inc. Pilots Seniority List will need to be willing to accept the NMB's determination during the ratification process of the next Tentative Agreement.

I don't believe this issue will ever be addressed from a "snap shot" perspective. This would only lead one to conclude the longer this issue persists, the more contentious it will become. In other words, intelligent people who have the company's overall best interests in mind should sit down and resolve the issue in a fair and mutually equitable manner. In the event this does not occur, only time will tell.

Respectfully,’
[/QUOTE]

A few NJA pilots got to fly a G Wiz for a few years. Exactly what did the other 95% of the NJA pilots get?
 

Hogprint

If you aint Cav...
Joined
Apr 16, 2002
Posts
684
Total Time
6000
More than a few of course. Once again I’ll let the architect of the merger explain it in better detail than I ever could. This is off the Netjets Integration Thread from March ‘09...this specific post is from 3/9/09.

It is an interesting thread to go revisit...if you want to wade through 11+pages!

CastOfThousands:

All,

Once again the landscape has changed, and any aura of invincibility will be dissolved one way or another. The financial crisis is challenging every aspect of the global and US economy, aviation industry, and private aviation itself. Enterprise must adjust or fail. Anyone who believes the financial crisis we encountered in 4Q 2008 which will persist through 2009 is a speed bump, is naïve at best. The economy pre-2009 is not the economy many pilots will see for the remainder of their careers; hence the landscape has changed. The “monopoly money” (financial leveraging) and climbing asset values that were fueling much of the global and US economies for nearly two decades (with a few hiccups) is officially a thing of the past. Quite simply, balance sheets and asset values have been destroyed and a lot of the discretionary/disposable high level incomes/cash flows have evaporated.

It doesn’t take a genius to understand private aviation is under attack; its many operations, services, suppliers, and manufactures are being hard hit because its purchasers and users are looked at as political/populist red meat. Moreover, for those that still have the resources - extravagance and opulence are officially in bad taste. In many ways it’s unfortunate because for those who know, the private aviation industry is as American as any industry, and tens of thousands of highly sought after and skilled jobs are being destroyed. The industry has suffered a 30-40% reduction in flight demand. Only the strongest will survive this steep and prolonged downturn. Speaking directly, maintaining the status quo is assured failure for every operator, service provider, supplier, and manufacture. It will require sustained cash flows (brand loyalty), cost containment initiatives, innovative business practices, and workforce cohesion to endure what's ahead. We can only hope the end of the beginning is near - it's certainly far from the beginning of the end.

The Integration is far more than NJA/NJI/NJLA crew integration – it’s about Operational Excellence and ensuring a safe, lean, and viable business model/plan that will justify continued support and investment from any ownership. Now more than ever before business ownership across the board/industry are asking three simple questions: (1) Do we have the cash reserves to continue to invest (assuming they have the money to invest) in this (choose any business) enterprise with ANY REALISTIC CHANCE of a future ROI? (2) Does the business have the cash flows (fixed/variable) vs costs (fixed/variable) to endure this prolonged downturn, even if ownership rights down the assets and cleans up the balance sheet? (3) Will there be a market and what’s the “right size” of the business for the future market/market share? 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006?

With all due respect, if anyone believes NetJets (or any other company for that matter) has an ounce of fat to spare for too long – they are disconnected from the brutal realities. Every company is fighting to retain existing jobs (NetJets has done exceptionally well), forget about new job creation – for now. While the market is shrinking, what’s important is the gain in existing/available market share. It's more competitive (pricing and service) than ever. In essence gaining in market share as the market shrinks. This requires business adjustments and a cohesive, dedicated, and enthusiastic/optimistic workforce. Economy of scale has pros and cons; the purchasing power can be significant. But, to change course is much more than turning an aircraft carrier, it’s like turning a fleet. We have many “ships” at NetJets, but with challenges come opportunities.

Integration is about more than crew integration, it’s about Operational Excellence for the future; organizational best practices, modern change process, agility, efficiency, creating operating leverage, and professional courtesy. The sooner we modernize and streamline the easier it will be to turn the fleet. This was not necessarily the plan going into 2008 or 2009, but we are presented with this difficult and necessary opportunity exiting 2009. The sooner the comprehensive plan is developed and communicated, and embraced which is the focus for the 2009, the sooner it will generate the results everyone seeks.

An unfortunately reality, nonetheless our reality; look beyond the past and focus on the future. A lot of great people are investing themselves into identifying all the opportunities and risk. They will engage the organization (bottom up) to ensure as we evolve over the next few years it's approached from the customer/crew interface backwards.

As for 2005 bargaining, LMRP, IBB, Integration – simply fortuitous… Now it's what's done with all the progress that really counts.

Respectfully,
 
Top