Durango sues United over Brasilia servic

DairyAir

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Just heard the other day that Durango, CO. is sueing United over the new service by Brasilias. I was told that they (SkyWest) can only take like 9 or 10 passengers when the weather is in the crapper. Just wondering if there is any truth to the rumor. I heard it from a friend who lives there. Just another note our Dorniers are going back to Colorado around June, trying to figure out where they are going to fly to. If anyone knows more than me let me know.
 

BluDevAv8r

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DairyAir said:
Just heard the other day that Durango, CO. is sueing United over the new service by Brasilias. I was told that they (SkyWest) can only take like 9 or 10 passengers when the weather is in the crapper. Just wondering if there is any truth to the rumor. I heard it from a friend who lives there. Just another note our Dorniers are going back to Colorado around June, trying to figure out where they are going to fly to. If anyone knows more than me let me know.
I can't speak for Skywest's 120's, but here at COEX, if we go full pax and full cargo compartment, we can only throw on 2500-2700 lbs of gas (depends on season and BOW of the airplane). We burn 1200 lbs of gas roughly the first hour and 1000 each additional. 2600 is good for a Houston-Jackson, MI flight in beautiful weather. Throw in some weather and/or heat and you're looking at a VERY substantial weight penalty. At least 10 people, if not more. I can't see how SKYW is going to run these bad boys in the mountains, where you almost always want extra gas to toy with.

-Neal
 

KFFA

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I don't see Durango's whole point. Sue United and then what? What I have herd is that the PAX are liking the service that SkyWest is giving? Is's not that we at SkyWest have no experience in flying in WX. Grand Junction, Casper WY, Cody, WY Sun Valley, ID Reno, NV and Jackson Hole, WY??? Most of those trips are about an hour and we don't have problems getting in except maybe Sun Valley, all they have is an NDB AP. What does the Dork Prop have for performance, that the Jungle Prop doesn't? I am asking in all honesty because I don't know a whole lot about the Dork Prop. You would have thought before United shuffled stuff around that they would have thought about this type of situation, but then again they are United, but you got to love those write-your-own's don't yaw. The question about what you guys may fly in the summer. Maybe some GL routes and/or overlap some of our routes, like we are in Dallas with ASA. We will see you around DEN.
 

BluDevAv8r

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I think the suit, from what I can gather above, is centered around the fact that the 120 is extremely weight limited in hot and high situations for flights over a certain distance. I can attest to that, having flown the 120 all summer around Texas. What's the point of a 30 seat airplane if you have to leave 10-15 people behind?

-Neal

PS - Perhaps the DO328 isn't as weight restricted. I don't know?
 

DairyAir

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I don't think that the suit is about the quality of service but as Neal said the number of passengers the 120 can take. The dork, if the captain is Gunnison qualified, can carry almost a full load about 28 or 29 pax in the worst weather situations. My buddy in DRO tried to fly out recently and the 120 was restricted to nine pax. If it is this bad in the winter what happens in the summer. Many pilots at Air willy came from Great Lakes and they have said that they Brasilia is just not a good mountain airplane. I keep trying to figure United out. Get this United wanted us to open a LAX base. That makes sense. Our management told them that Sky West can have it and let us keep Denver. From what I have heard that is probably what will happen. We have started negotiations with Dornier about the 328Jet which if what I have heard would be a fabulous Mountain bird. Who knows what will happen. See Ya!
 

FlightTraker

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Having dispatched the EMB-120 (Comair) and the DO-328 (Air Wisconsin), the Brasilia is just too weight limited in the mountains. I can't really remember a time we ever bumped anyone off a 328 in Colorado due to weight (not saying it diidn't happen), but can remember numerous occasions in the "flatlands" we left people behind out of CVG when the weather was bad and an alternate required, holding fuel..........Does anyone know how the EMB is on driftdown? I am guessing that is one reason why they can't take that many people.
 

bluestuck

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The Dork doesn't have anywhere near the hot and high problems the brazilian king air has. I've only had to take people off once or twice for a 2 hr flight to CHS with terrible wx. now if you guys are in fact getting the jet...that thing is a rocket. I got to fly the sim for a few minutes waiting for a prop sim, and 4000fpm is standard with 18degree deck angle and about 170 kias. The only problem with it is that it doesn't have reversers, the brakes are a bit squirrelly and the packs are weak. Just like they say about all German Cars: "Drives great, comfortable for the pax, but the AC sux."
 

FSIGRAD

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When I was working Customer service for Lakes in DEN 3+years ago I remember this type of situation occuring on a regular basis....Brasilia holds 29 (not too positive on that number) United sells 34 seats, everyone shows up for the flight and due to a weight restriction only 10 passengers can go, leaving me to explain to 24 paxs (2/3s of the flight) that they are bumped and the airplane is leaving almost empty........security to gate B59 please!
 

AWACoff

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Please don't call the Emb-120 a brazilian King Air. The "Brakillya" is nowhere near as good a plane as the 1900. I flew the 120 at Lakes for 1300 hours. Most of it out of ORD but I spent my last 2 months out of DEN. I left Lakes in late May. The most memorable restriction we had that month out of Hayden was zero people and zero bags. May isn't a hot month. The brasilia is not a mountain plane. With the 118B engines, it was a bit better...but I still had my doubts if we bagged one. 1000fpm on 2 engines is pathetic. The Dork on the other hand...I did all my training in GJT in July and IOE as well. The airplane did great. Biggest restriction I ever saw limited us to 25 people and that was with a very hot day. The only good thing about the Brasilia is Natasha....she's a total babe!
 

dispatchguy

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DEN-DRO

Another restriction has to do with the route. When I dispatched D328s last ski season at Air Cheese, if the flight was full, I would route the DENDRO flights PIKES2 ALS..DRO. It took GUC out of the picture as a driftdown alternate, we completed the enroute climbout on the front face of the rockies, and I was ALWAYS able to carry full pax/bags. The DRODEN flight I would route in the opposite direction, DRO..ALS then the arrival into DEN.

Using the company standard route, DEN194 radial to somewhere I think, always ended up a weight restriction, or GUC crew qualification became an issue. The company route was faster, but my route allowed full pax/bags.

Plus, from what I remember hearing somewhere, doesnt GL only dispatch Method I (terrain clearance), and doesnt use Method II (driftdown) at all (I heard that at Air Cheese, not sure how accurate that actually is).
 

ifly4food

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AWACoff said:
The only good thing about the Brasilia is Natasha....she's a total babe!
I think Lakes is the only airline that even calls her Natasha. I tries that at ASA and they looked at me like I was nuts.
"Hi Steve! Hi Steve!"
"Landing Gear!"

Oh baby!
 

AWACoff

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Why she was always yelling "Hi Steve" I'll never know ;). Dispatch guy is indeed correct. Lakes does not use the driftdown method. The Denver/Hayden trip wasvery strange. We would have to fly almost straight north to some VOR (I forget the name) and then take over a 90 degree turn to the southwest to head for Hayden. The memorable part was the fact that in order to end up on the center of the airway, you had to start your turn 4.7nm before the VOR (assuming no wind conditions). And to answer your question, no we didn't have anything better to do than compute pointless course interceptions.
 

C425Driver

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Just curious, do the SkyWest 120's have the PW-118 or -118A engines on them? The -118's do not have the high and hot performance needed to operate out of a high altitude airport like DRO (6600' MSL as I recall). The -118A engines have much better high and hot performance and can take a much higher payload out of cities like DRO.

C425Driver
 

AWACoff

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Last time I checked, they had 118Bs on them. Lakes did the "mod" when they brought the Brakillyas out to DEN.
 

3green

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I wonder how Eagle will do with there E-135's out of DRO? I guess will find out in 4 days..
 

Marko Ramius

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dispatchguy said:

Plus, from what I remember hearing somewhere, doesnt GL only dispatch Method I (terrain clearance), and doesnt use Method II (driftdown) at all (I heard that at Air Cheese, not sure how accurate that actually is).
I'm not sure what you call Lakes' dispatch method-maybe Method 1.5? They aren't approved for driftdown in the D model, which in most quadrants outside of northwestern Iowa would mean no Method II, but of course it's not that simple. They break the route into segments and give each segment a "diversionary airport". The DEN-DRO route is usually Rocki3.HBU...DRO and they'll put something like, "diversionary airport east of HBU is DEN, DRO west of HBU." Of course the term "diversionary airport" isn't found anywhere in 121.191 a1 or a2, but that doesn't matter does it? Along those lines, the reg says that you must use the approved enroute net flight path data to figure your performance capability. They don't have driftdown charts, only SE service ceiling and SE climb gradient charts. The former is far more liberal than the latter, so you can guess which they use. Based on what the charts actually represent and the conditions used to derive them it would make more sense to use the gradient charts, but even then it should be method I not II. Of course there is no method to calculate adverse winds or the like either as required by Method II. Bottom line, act like you don't know what any of this means during any oral or examination and everything will be OK!:p
 

dispatchguy

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3green said:
I wonder how Eagle will do with there E-135's out of DRO? I guess will find out in 4 days..
Even though I am with EGF, I wouldnt know as I only work the Caribbean :) No driftdown down there...
 

IFLYASA

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Only 10 people on a Brasilia? Seems like the only way that's possible is to max out the fuel. That's still around 5 hours. On our ER's at ASA, with 3 hours of fuel we can still take 30 passengers with full bags using winter weights.. Usually it's zero-weight limited by then which reduces it down to 29 passengers.
 

FlyingSig

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IFLYASA said:
On our ER's at ASA, with 3 hours of fuel we can still take 30 passengers with full bags using winter weights..
Just curious what the ratio of ER's to non ER's is at ASA in DFW? I commute DFW-IAH and it seems that the max load is usually around 25 pax on a good day and on weather days I've seen it restricted to 19 but usually in the 20-25 range (can't imagine where the alt was that day...but I got left behind).
 

328dude

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The Dork is hardly ever weight restricted. I've seen it maybe three times when the weather was crap, 100 knot head wind for a 2 hour 15 minute flight. Then we maybe need to get rid of 2 people. I like the Brasilla but the Dork out performs it greatly. True's out at 330 to 340, 31000 ft cruise altitude and climbs like a home sick angel ex. Like I said, nothing against the brasilla but they should have kept the Dork service.

Guess seven of the dorks are comming to PSA from Air Whisky.
Maybe that's why they pulled them out.
 
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