So in the above case, does the 1 capt log 20 hours of PIC and the other 3 F/O's also log 20 hours split 3 ways?This is how we see it........we (us F/O's) are all type rated in the 747-400 in the left seat. (We took our check ride from the Feds in the left seat for our initial type rating, for recurrent PC's and PT's we get checked flying from the right seat.) We fly from the right seat but in cruise when the captain is sleeping we sit and preform the duties of Captain. The only true Captain is the guy who signs the flight plan........but we all log cruise captain time.....(when we sit in the left seat for the captain) for one reason only!!! Foreign Airlines allow cruise captain time, you can go be a cruise captain at Eva or Korean or China, you will go to the sim every 90 days but you will make six figures as a cruise captain.
U.S. carriers do not care about cruise captain time, they will laugh at your cruise captain time if you are bold enough to list it in the first place. ONLY FOREIGN CARRIERS CARE ABOUT CRUISE CAPTAIN TIME. If you want to go that route it is a great place to be........If not, dont log cruise captain time.......or at least do not list in on any U.S. Airline application.
Just my two cents......
God Speed in all your endeavours,
P.S. The only reason the company can dispatch a flight with one Captain and three F/O's for a 20 hour duty day is that all the F/O's are type rated and can act as cruise captain. If the F/O's were not type rated then the company would have to have two captains and two F/O's on board. We do this every day with our ANC-ORD-ANC trip. To be a captain at a foreign carrier you have to have 500 to 1000 hours PIC in type. But you can go to work for some of them as a cruise captain with no PIC time. Just with a F/O check out and several hundred hours of "cruise captain" time.
You find Curtis Malone haunting? Check out allatps.com under "airline placements".I have no clue what this thread is about, but I have to admit it has the best collection of avatars I have seen in a while. Steve -- yours is the most haunting.
You can log it under all three legally if your hands are on the controls. What the FAA wants and what an airline hiring you want are two different things (which is why airlines specify that PIC to them means the guy signing for the plane).Operating under part 91 or possibly even 135 you could log pic if qualified and flying the leg, but not during part 121.
Thats a great Idea, we should all adopt an ATP "grad." I`m gunna go look for one now!You find Curtis Malone haunting? Check out allatps.com under "airline placements".
Curtis is the new face of TSA Airlines! He was quoted saying "456 total time, 44 multi ERJ here I come!"
I would be interested in reading the FAR pertaining to that, can you please post it.?Under U.S. FAR's (14 CFR), once you obtain an ATP certificate, there is no provision to continue to log the "sole manipulator" type of PIC time.
What is required to get hired (PIC time involving the signing for the aircraft) versus what the FAR's allow for (in legally logging PIC) are two different things.Donald P. Byrne Assistant Chief Counsel said:Legal Interpretation # 92-40
June 5, 1992
Dear Mr. Butler:
Thank you for your letter of March 14, 1992, in which you ask
questions about logging pilot-in-command (PIC) and
second-in-command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the
Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).
Your letter presents the following scenario: under a Part 121
operation, the air carrier has designated a pilot and a co-pilot.
The pilot is the authorized PIC and the co-pilot is the
authorized SIC. During the course of the flight, the SIC is the
sole manipulator of the controls for one or more legs.
You ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot
designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 121.385,
can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane.
The answer is yes.
FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:
(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the
operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.
FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly
responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the
operation of that aircraft.
There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC
time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is
important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only
regulates the recording of:
(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet
the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent
flight experience requirements of this part.
Your second question asks if the SIC is flying the airplane, can
he log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he
is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator
of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency
checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. The
answer is yes.
FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:
(2) Pilot-in-command flight time.
(i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may
log pilot-in-command time only that flight time during
which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the
controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated,
or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft,
or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as
pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot is required under the type certification or the
aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in
command time all of the flight time during which he
acts as pilot in command.
(iii) Second-in-command flight time. A pilot may log
as second in command time all flight time during which
he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted.
As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot-in-command flight
time that are pertinent to both your questions. The first is as
the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft
during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight
by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385, that
person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who
is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because
that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the
The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your
question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your
letter. Thus, under a 121 operation you can have both pilots
logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated
second in command is manipulating the controls.
We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight
time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to
show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the
requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if
the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or
only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC
can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serve as PIC
under Part 121.
An example of this difference is FAR 121.652(a), which raises IFR
landing minimums for pilots in command of airplanes flown under
Part 121 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that
type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this
context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not
served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check
rides necessary for certification as a Part 121 PIC.
We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.
/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division