Cruise Captain vs. Regular Captain Time

habubuaza

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Obviously most majors out there are requiring 1000 hours pic in turbine aircraft. Can anyone tell me if there are any airlines that DO NOT allow cruise captain time? Thank you.
 

FoxHunter

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:( Reality is there is no such thing as a "Cruise Captain". The only Captain is the individual that signs the Flight Release. Where I fly all the F/Os are type rated but they took their type ride in the right seat, have to complete a full course to move to the left seat. Sorry Cruise Captain at best is considered F/O time, which it really is.
 

DamionInAlaska

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Well, where I work, Captain is title, not a seat position. So, here is another question. If the FO is rated in the aircraft, sitting in the left seat, performing the duties of captain, can he log it PIC. My answer: Its your log book, I don't care how you log anything.
 

Icebergclub

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Cruise Captain

This is how we see it........we (us F/O's) are all type rated in the 747-400 in the left seat. (We took our check ride from the Feds in the left seat for our initial type rating, for recurrent PC's and PT's we get checked flying from the right seat.) We fly from the right seat but in cruise when the captain is sleeping we sit and preform the duties of Captain. The only true Captain is the guy who signs the flight plan........but we all log cruise captain time.....(when we sit in the left seat for the captain) for one reason only!!! Foreign Airlines allow cruise captain time, you can go be a cruise captain at Eva or Korean or China, you will go to the sim every 90 days but you will make six figures as a cruise captain.
U.S. carriers do not care about cruise captain time, they will laugh at your cruise captain time if you are bold enough to list it in the first place. ONLY FOREIGN CARRIERS CARE ABOUT CRUISE CAPTAIN TIME. If you want to go that route it is a great place to be........If not, dont log cruise captain time.......or at least do not list in on any U.S. Airline application.

Just my two cents......

God Speed in all your endeavours,

Clifford

P.S. The only reason the company can dispatch a flight with one Captain and three F/O's for a 20 hour duty day is that all the F/O's are type rated and can act as cruise captain. If the F/O's were not type rated then the company would have to have two captains and two F/O's on board. We do this every day with our ANC-ORD-ANC trip. To be a captain at a foreign carrier you have to have 500 to 1000 hours PIC in type. But you can go to work for some of them as a cruise captain with no PIC time. Just with a F/O check out and several hundred hours of "cruise captain" time.
 
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habubuaza

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Thanks for the replies.
 

FoxHunter

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Asian carriers hire "Cruise Captains" because they would not be allowed to hire foreign F/Os. The way they get around the rule is to call these F/Os "Cruise Captains". Remember all countries have their own version of the INS.
 

Steve

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This is how we see it........we (us F/O's) are all type rated in the 747-400 in the left seat. (We took our check ride from the Feds in the left seat for our initial type rating, for recurrent PC's and PT's we get checked flying from the right seat.) We fly from the right seat but in cruise when the captain is sleeping we sit and preform the duties of Captain. The only true Captain is the guy who signs the flight plan........but we all log cruise captain time.....(when we sit in the left seat for the captain) for one reason only!!! Foreign Airlines allow cruise captain time, you can go be a cruise captain at Eva or Korean or China, you will go to the sim every 90 days but you will make six figures as a cruise captain.
U.S. carriers do not care about cruise captain time, they will laugh at your cruise captain time if you are bold enough to list it in the first place. ONLY FOREIGN CARRIERS CARE ABOUT CRUISE CAPTAIN TIME. If you want to go that route it is a great place to be........If not, dont log cruise captain time.......or at least do not list in on any U.S. Airline application.

Just my two cents......

God Speed in all your endeavours,

Clifford

P.S. The only reason the company can dispatch a flight with one Captain and three F/O's for a 20 hour duty day is that all the F/O's are type rated and can act as cruise captain. If the F/O's were not type rated then the company would have to have two captains and two F/O's on board. We do this every day with our ANC-ORD-ANC trip. To be a captain at a foreign carrier you have to have 500 to 1000 hours PIC in type. But you can go to work for some of them as a cruise captain with no PIC time. Just with a F/O check out and several hundred hours of "cruise captain" time.
So in the above case, does the 1 capt log 20 hours of PIC and the other 3 F/O's also log 20 hours split 3 ways?
 

SuperFLUF

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Type rated or not, left seat trained or not you are not a legal "captain" or "pic" unless you have had a captain line check for 121 ops with that airline in that airplane.

So the answer is you can log anything you want but it is not legal PIC time.

Any questions call your local FSDO they have gladly and frankly answered any of mine without even asking my name.
 

VxClimb

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i always thought it was whoever signed for the aircraft/release. for example if you had two captains flying the aircraft maybe both qualified in both seats. whoever signed for the aircraft/release is PIC and logs it. not the other.
 

bigsky

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Like others have mentioned, I would give some thought of logging it in a seperate column, as some foreign carriers may care.
However it is very clear in part 121 who is the captain.... his name is listed by the dispatchers name on the flight release....period!
Even though I was a type rated(from left seat) first officer, who received a small override as acting as cruise captain or International officer or whatever, my company status was FO, who did a yearly checkride, no line check, and first officer pay.
Captain gets the 2 checks per year, FAA line check initially, company line checks, yade yade..... without all this you are not 121 qualified to act as PIC.

We had( company not me personally) a gross Nav error in N Atlantic. Guess who got violated... The pic, even though he was in the bunk sleeping....while the 2 type rated FOs were up front...Again it comes down to no matter how many qualified FO s are on the 20 hour trip, the captain signs for the ac and this makes him ultimately responsible......just my 3 cents.
Operating under part 91 or possibly even 135 you could log pic if qualified and flying the leg, but not during part 121.
 

Bavarian Chef

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I have no clue what this thread is about, but I have to admit it has the best collection of avatars I have seen in a while. Steve -- yours is the most haunting.
 

Steve

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I have no clue what this thread is about, but I have to admit it has the best collection of avatars I have seen in a while. Steve -- yours is the most haunting.
You find Curtis Malone haunting? Check out allatps.com under "airline placements".

Curtis is the new face of TSA Airlines! He was quoted saying "456 total time, 44 multi ERJ here I come!"
 

Falconjet

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With those ears it looks like Curtis could take off and land without the jet.

Did I type that out loud?

FJ
 

AC560

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Operating under part 91 or possibly even 135 you could log pic if qualified and flying the leg, but not during part 121.
You can log it under all three legally if your hands are on the controls. What the FAA wants and what an airline hiring you want are two different things (which is why airlines specify that PIC to them means the guy signing for the plane).
 

Fliteidol

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You find Curtis Malone haunting? Check out allatps.com under "airline placements".

Curtis is the new face of TSA Airlines! He was quoted saying "456 total time, 44 multi ERJ here I come!"
Thats a great Idea, we should all adopt an ATP "grad." I`m gunna go look for one now!
 

Steve

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Thats a great Idea, we should all adopt an ATP "grad." I`m gunna go look for one now!
HAHHA Great Idea. You should start a new thread. Although you may be disappointed to find that the weirdest looking one is already spoken for :}
 
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CJCCapt

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Just a side note. Under U.S. FAR's (14 CFR), once you obtain an ATP certificate, there is no provision to continue to log the "sole manipulator" type of PIC time. The only PIC time you may log once you hold an ATP is the type defined in Part 1.1, i.e., "the person who has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight", meaning the Captain who signed the paperwork. Let me put it this way: if you need to divert, are you going to do it without waking up the Captain, just because you're the "cruise captain" at the moment?
 
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SSDD

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The sad thing about the state of commercial aviation today is that someone who has reached the point of flying an airplane that requires a relief, or cruise captain, is concerned with logging time so he can move on to a "better" job.
 

bigsky

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I have to agree with SSDD... Normally when one acquires a position on a widebody international, you would have hoped you wouldnt be worried about logging time for the next job.
 

AC560

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Under U.S. FAR's (14 CFR), once you obtain an ATP certificate, there is no provision to continue to log the "sole manipulator" type of PIC time.
I would be interested in reading the FAR pertaining to that, can you please post it.?

Donald P. Byrne Assistant Chief Counsel said:
Legal Interpretation # 92-40

June 5, 1992

Dear Mr. Butler:

Thank you for your letter of March 14, 1992, in which you ask
questions about logging pilot-in-command (PIC) and
second-in-command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the
Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).

Your letter presents the following scenario: under a Part 121
operation, the air carrier has designated a pilot and a co-pilot.
The pilot is the authorized PIC and the co-pilot is the
authorized SIC. During the course of the flight, the SIC is the
sole manipulator of the controls for one or more legs.

You ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot
designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 121.385,
can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane.
The answer is yes.

FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:

(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the
operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.

FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly
responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the
operation of that aircraft.

There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC
time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is
important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only
regulates the recording of:

(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet
the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent
flight experience requirements of this part.

Your second question asks if the SIC is flying the airplane, can
he log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he
is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator
of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency
checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. The
answer is yes.

FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:

(2) Pilot-in-command flight time.

(i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may
log pilot-in-command time only that flight time during
which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the
controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated,
or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft,
or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as
pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot is required under the type certification or the
aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.

(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in
command time all of the flight time during which he
acts as pilot in command.

(iii) Second-in-command flight time. A pilot may log
as second in command time all flight time during which
he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under
which the flight is conducted.

As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot-in-command flight
time that are pertinent to both your questions. The first is as
the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft
during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight
by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385, that
person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who
is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because
that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the
aircraft.

The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your
question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your
letter. Thus, under a 121 operation you can have both pilots
logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated
second in command is manipulating the controls.

We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight
time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to
show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the
requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if
the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or
only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC
can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serve as PIC
under Part 121.

An example of this difference is FAR 121.652(a), which raises IFR
landing minimums for pilots in command of airplanes flown under
Part 121 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that
type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this
context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not
served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check
rides necessary for certification as a Part 121 PIC.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,

/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
What is required to get hired (PIC time involving the signing for the aircraft) versus what the FAR's allow for (in legally logging PIC) are two different things.
 
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