• APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 9.1 is now available on the Apple App Store. Click here for details of what's new in this release. Major new features include Default Rest Facility, ATC Flight Planned Routes and Notifications of route changes, EDCT Status Board Widget, and more...

Crash at ASE...

Fly91

Registered Pilot
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
635
Total Time
lots
Another wonderful decision by a pilot.......just great.....

I guess we'll always have pilots that will just never learn.....part of the industry it seems.

Another case of a stupid Captain killing people.......he was trying to land with a 30 kt tailwind, he tells the tower that. That's willfully and knowingly doing something with that plane that can cause a crash and its against the manufacturers limitations. The Captain should be charged with Manslaughter.....for sure. If he survives......
 
Last edited:

Shag McNasty

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2002
Messages
119
Total Time
1+
Another wonderful decision by a pilot.......just great.....

I guess we'll always have pilots that will just never learn.....part of the industry it seems.

Another case of a stupid Captain killing people.......he was trying to land with a 30 kt tailwind, he tells the tower that. That's willfully and knowingly doing something with that plane that can cause a crash and its against the manufacturers limitations. The Captain should be charged with Manslaughter.....for sure. If he survives......
Calm down drama queen. The copilot was killed, he was a willing participant. Hardly manslaughter.
 

LJ45

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Messages
1,081
Total Time
13,000
Calm down drama queen. The copilot was killed, he was a willing participant. Hardly manslaughter.

I agree, you can't sit there and watch yourself get killed. very sad day, and not the first time or last time this will happen, sadly.
 

Fly91

Registered Pilot
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
635
Total Time
lots
Calm down drama queen. The copilot was killed, he was a willing participant. Hardly manslaughter.
Now you should know that just isn't how it works out there.....copilots, most of them anyway, just sit and do whatever it is the moron captain does.

It certainly can be manslaughter, and should be. Anytime a person does something that can potentially KILL another human being, even if its not on purpose, it's called Manslaughter.

"The leading cause of death of copilots......is captains."
 

Fly91

Registered Pilot
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
635
Total Time
lots
I agree, you can't sit there and watch yourself get killed. very sad day, and not the first time or last time this will happen, sadly.
Uh, yea, that's exactly what copilots do all the time. They just sit there and watch their lives end....... It's the way it is. Now maybe you weren't like that and that guy wasn't like that....but 99.99% of them are like that. It's the way it is........!!!!

I have told captains to suck my "beep" when they wouldn't put enough fuel on to make me comfortable. Literally laugh at tyem in the lobby of the FBO when they tell me we're going and thats that.....yeah, whatever fat man.

I've called the tower and said "Nxxxx going missed approach we have full scale deflection" when dumb moron stupid captains would be chasing needles at 800 feet on an ILS in bad weather. I've called Minimum Fuel on Lear 25's when the moron captains wanted to get back in line #10 for another approach in a Lear 25 with 800 pounds of fuel remaining after going Missed Approach in bad weather.

As far as I'm concerned, in many cases, before the flight departs and while the plane is in the air.....the copilot is the final authority, especially when it's a moron captain sitting in the left seat trying to kill you making stupid decisions. I didn't make a lot of captains happy sometimes, but screw them, I'm still alive.

Copilots need to speak up more and literally tell the captain he can suck it.......get on the radio and call missed approach, that will force the morons to actually go missed. Coming down final tell the tower there's a 30 it tailwind and we can't land in that, the captain would then have to go missed. Don't just sit there and fly into wind shear, tail winds, gusts and low visibility....IN FREAKIN ASPEN......

Copilots need to take control more often, that's EXACTLY why they are there. Ay time I talk to a new copilot I tell him exactly how you keep from letting a moron captain kill you. And DO NOT leave on the flight if anything is out of your comfort zone, because they are truly the final authority. If they say the plane doesn't fly, it doesn't fly. No while its flying there's many things they can say to force a moron captain from continuing to do something dangerous.

-----and. I don't need anyone to post how..."But they will lose their job if they do that." Uh, well.......this copilot is going into the ground now because he didn't speak up. And if he was all for trying to land in that weather in Aspen, that makes two fools.

Ah, whatever.......like you said, its not gonna be the last. And WHY.....because copilots won't speak up. So whatever.....
 

Shag McNasty

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2002
Messages
119
Total Time
1+
Wow, you're very passionate about this. Maybe you should get away from the south Florida aviation scene.
 

Paradoxus

Sith Sorcerer
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Messages
5,376
Total Time
Lv. 50
Uh, yea, that's exactly what copilots do all the time. They just sit there and watch their lives end....... It's the way it is. Now maybe you weren't like that and that guy wasn't like that....but 99.99% of them are like that. It's the way it is........!!!!

I have told captains to suck my "beep" when they wouldn't put enough fuel on to make me comfortable. Literally laugh at tyem in the lobby of the FBO when they tell me we're going and thats that.....yeah, whatever fat man.

I've called the tower and said "Nxxxx going missed approach we have full scale deflection" when dumb moron stupid captains would be chasing needles at 800 feet on an ILS in bad weather. I've called Minimum Fuel on Lear 25's when the moron captains wanted to get back in line #10 for another approach in a Lear 25 with 800 pounds of fuel remaining after going Missed Approach in bad weather.

As far as I'm concerned, in many cases, before the flight departs and while the plane is in the air.....the copilot is the final authority, especially when it's a moron captain sitting in the left seat trying to kill you making stupid decisions. I didn't make a lot of captains happy sometimes, but screw them, I'm still alive.

Copilots need to speak up more and literally tell the captain he can suck it.......get on the radio and call missed approach, that will force the morons to actually go missed. Coming down final tell the tower there's a 30 it tailwind and we can't land in that, the captain would then have to go missed. Don't just sit there and fly into wind shear, tail winds, gusts and low visibility....IN FREAKIN ASPEN......

Copilots need to take control more often, that's EXACTLY why they are there. Ay time I talk to a new copilot I tell him exactly how you keep from letting a moron captain kill you. And DO NOT leave on the flight if anything is out of your comfort zone, because they are truly the final authority. If they say the plane doesn't fly, it doesn't fly. No while its flying there's many things they can say to force a moron captain from continuing to do something dangerous.

-----and. I don't need anyone to post how..."But they will lose their job if they do that." Uh, well.......this copilot is going into the ground now because he didn't speak up. And if he was all for trying to land in that weather in Aspen, that makes two fools.

Ah, whatever.......like you said, its not gonna be the last. And WHY.....because copilots won't speak up. So whatever.....
Just one of the many reasons Part 91 is bullsh*t; the training (and culture) blows.
 

hawkerflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2003
Messages
485
Total Time
9500+
Just one of the many reasons Part 91 is bullsh*t; the training (and culture) blows.
Yeah, you're right. Because 135 crews haven't ever had any problems at Aspen and 121 crews never make mistakes either. What was I thinking?
 

Paradoxus

Sith Sorcerer
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Messages
5,376
Total Time
Lv. 50
Yeah, you're right. Because 135 crews haven't ever had any problems at Aspen and 121 crews never make mistakes either. What was I thinking?
No, they have, but the training regimens and regulatory oversight is a damn sight more comprehensive. Demonstrably so.
 

wingnutt

...recognize this?
Joined
Mar 31, 2002
Messages
1,077
Total Time
+30yrs
Just one of the many reasons Part 91 is bullsh*t; the training (and culture) blows.
lol, nicely laid at the feet of every (and any) part 91 operator. In the immortal words of a certain ToolMan sidekick..."I dont think so Tim."

Are there ignorant operators out there, sure...but I have had MANY 135 checks that were at best a joke, downright irresponsible at worst.

If your job is either of them, move on ;)
 

livin'thesim

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
926
Total Time
.
All comes down to management at the top. A culture than punishes safe decisions will cause these incidents.

While I acknowledge that the PIC still is the final authority, and ultimately responsible, it should be a crime to pressure pilots whose decisions are often compromised by things like worrying about feeding their families. I am thinking of the Gulfstream crash in Aspen a while back. If memory serves, the charter customer was pressuring the pilots to complete the flight.

That means of all those who died on that flight, at least the a-hole charter customer and his intimidation tactics finally got what he deserved. To bad the others paid the price as well. I wonder if in those last few seconds of life if he suddenly had an epiphany that all his bullying tactics had finally met their match in the laws of physics. Bullies usually die a fearful death.

I am also reminded of the scumbags who ran the 135 op that resulted in the Teterboro incident that resulted in the op control language issue. I heard that they went to prison. I like that a lot.
 
Last edited:

TimsKeeper

Registered Abuser
Joined
Dec 14, 2003
Messages
290
Total Time
8000
Anonymous

A lot of balls for completely anonymous.

You likely sit there and do what you are told. Hope your post makes you feel better. You sound like a real professional gem any pilot would want to fly with.

Uh, yea, that's exactly what copilots do all the time. They just sit there and watch their lives end....... It's the way it is. Now maybe you weren't like that and that guy wasn't like that....but 99.99% of them are like that. It's the way it is........!!!!

I have told captains to suck my "beep" when they wouldn't put enough fuel on to make me comfortable. Literally laugh at tyem in the lobby of the FBO when they tell me we're going and thats that.....yeah, whatever fat man.

I've called the tower and said "Nxxxx going missed approach we have full scale deflection" when dumb moron stupid captains would be chasing needles at 800 feet on an ILS in bad weather. I've called Minimum Fuel on Lear 25's when the moron captains wanted to get back in line #10 for another approach in a Lear 25 with 800 pounds of fuel remaining after going Missed Approach in bad weather.

As far as I'm concerned, in many cases, before the flight departs and while the plane is in the air.....the copilot is the final authority, especially when it's a moron captain sitting in the left seat trying to kill you making stupid decisions. I didn't make a lot of captains happy sometimes, but screw them, I'm still alive.

Copilots need to speak up more and literally tell the captain he can suck it.......get on the radio and call missed approach, that will force the morons to actually go missed. Coming down final tell the tower there's a 30 it tailwind and we can't land in that, the captain would then have to go missed. Don't just sit there and fly into wind shear, tail winds, gusts and low visibility....IN FREAKIN ASPEN......

Copilots need to take control more often, that's EXACTLY why they are there. Ay time I talk to a new copilot I tell him exactly how you keep from letting a moron captain kill you. And DO NOT leave on the flight if anything is out of your comfort zone, because they are truly the final authority. If they say the plane doesn't fly, it doesn't fly. No while its flying there's many things they can say to force a moron captain from continuing to do something dangerous.

-----and. I don't need anyone to post how..."But they will lose their job if they do that." Uh, well.......this copilot is going into the ground now because he didn't speak up. And if he was all for trying to land in that weather in Aspen, that makes two fools.

Ah, whatever.......like you said, its not gonna be the last. And WHY.....because copilots won't speak up. So whatever.....
 

TimsKeeper

Registered Abuser
Joined
Dec 14, 2003
Messages
290
Total Time
8000
Context

Before you get too bent out of shape. I don't mind your opinion of stepping up to the plate, but have a little more professionalism in the way in which you do it.

If you continuously need to call different Captains out on the radio you may not be properly communicating your displeasures to your Captain.

CRM doesn't start and end with your decision. Be heard, but be heard correctly.
 

Freight Dawg

What can Brown do for you
Joined
Apr 15, 2005
Messages
156
Total Time
Enough
Ouch, that looked really, really bad. Any one notice the last video with all the snowing blowing down the ramp, the wrong way.
 

bbwest

2XB
Joined
Sep 24, 2005
Messages
45
Total Time
8K+
How many landed at ASE that didn't crash?

I think we can all see the folly with this crash- a classic display of poor judgement among other things that we'll learn about in due time. Meanwhile here's an interesting question- How many aircraft actually landed at Aspen that same day in those same conditions with tailwinds out of limits? Stupid was just confined to one cockpit that day.
 

dustrpilot

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
567
Total Time
today?
Was the opposite end being used for departure, or was aircraft taking off with that tail wind?
 
Top