Coyote Hunting from a Super Cub DOH!

A1FlyBoy

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** Report created 03/26/2002 Record 1 **
********************************************************************************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 22EV Make/Model: PA18 Description: PA-18 Super Cub (L-18C, L-21,
Date: 03/25/2002 Time: 1430

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Serious Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: GLASGOW State: MT Country: US

DESCRIPTION
ACFT PASSENGER ACCIDENTLY DISCHARGED HIS SHOTGUN WHILE COYOTE HUNTING AND
SHOT THE RIGHT WING OF THE ACFT, THE ACFT SUBSEQUENTLY CRASHED, AND THE 2
POB SUSTAINED SERIOUS INJURIES, GLASGOW, MT.

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 1 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 1 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: METAR GGW 251356Z 11018KT 10SM CLR M13/M16 A3014

OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Unknown Operation: General Aviation

Departed: UNKN Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: UNKN Flt Plan: UNK Wx Briefing: U
Last Radio Cont: UNKN
Last Clearance: UNKN

FAA FSDO: HELENA, MT (NM05) Entry date: 03/26/2002
 

Answerguy

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LOL

When i was based in Worland, WY the locals flew around their cubs, brought along their shot guns and went hunting all the time. Guess this time they got a cub and not a coyote!
 

troy

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Hey, Answerguy, when were you based in Worland. I grew up there.....
 

Answerguy

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worland

I was in WRL from 4-98 till 8-98 with Great Lakes. What a good time that was!
 

avbug

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Sky Aviation in WRL uses Arctic Terns, not cubs.

The fact that someone thinks shooting coyotes from the air is a "doh" issue, demonstrates a lack of understanding from the topic. The federal government pays for these programs, and there are more than a few folks who make a living doing this. Predator control is big business, especially in cattle and sheep country.

Just because an activity is outside one's range of experience, don't knock what isn't understood. It's legitimate, acceptable,and performed by people who know how to fly an airplane, rather than drive it.

Don't knock the fact that an accident, occured either. There before the grace of God go we all. Many good men have died in preventable events, but they'll continue to happen, and more will be lost. Learn from them to be sure, but don't be too quick to condemn the dead to eternal stupidity because you don't understand.
 

Answerguy

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WRL

Thanks for clearing that up, I always thought they were some crazy cowboys screwing around.
Another thing that i found interesting about WRL is how they would start up the AG-CATS, chalk the wheel, then go inside and have coffee while they warmed up for 10-15.
 

SheGaveMeClap

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Avbug, relax buddy. Some people don't know the in's and out's of backwoods flying. I used to hunt coyotes and fox out of my PA-11 with a government permit. You'd be surprised how many people didn't know that was legal (with the right gov't permit). Just give them a little FYI, no need to lecture anyone.

And for those Ag-cats, that's common practice. Let it fire, drink another pot of coffee so the oil can circulate. With nine cylinders on those big 'ol radials, it takes awhile for the oil to warm up and get distributed. Out in MT, deer season comes along and half of those crazy ba$tards hunt out of their Cubs anyway. In Big Sky country, there's lots of space, and you don't usually get caught. For the most part, it is crazy cowboys screwing around!!! :D
 
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avbug

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The R985's and 1340's don't take time to warm because there are so many cylinders; with more cylinders firing, the time which is required to warm up is actually less. What takes so long is the fact that the oil is dry sump, with the tank being located away from the engine. The entire engine must be warmed, and it's different on a radial than warming a horizontally opposed engine.

Additionally, the engine must be cleared, and fouled plugs and oil in the lower cylindes are common. The engine won't run right until it's warm. It needs to be run at low idle RPM's until the oil flows freely; what lubricates at 800 rpm's doesn't suffice at 2100.

Leaving the airplane chocked and running is not common practice among ag operators. I've certainly never done it. Placing cardboard over the oil cooler and sitting in the airplane is common, but not leaving the airplane on it's own.

In certain back country situations, I've chocked a wheel with a rock, put the engine on one mag at idle, and loaded people and bags, but only under certain circumstances. In such places, these activities aren't unusual.

I don't recall meeting any crazy cowboys screwing around up there. I must have missed them. In Montana and Wyoming, hunting and flying on the same day is illegal, as it is in most states. Most folks I knew recognized that fact, and respected it. Government sanctioned activities such as predator control, are another matter, and are legitimate.
 

OtterFO

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By looking at the NTSB database you'll find several accidents every year in AK where someone shoots themselves down. Sometimes its legal acctivity, sometimes it's not....

Also, on the subject of airplanes running without anyone in them. When I was towing banners for a living, we had no starters on the aircraft we flew (mostly J series cubs and PA-18s), so it was commin practice to hook a tiedown rope to a spare tow release, prop yourself off, get in and pull the release. Couple of times I pulled the wrong bloody release and had to get out again to put my hook back on.......
 

SheGaveMeClap

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avbug said:
The R985's and 1340's don't take time to warm because there are so many cylinders; with more cylinders firing, the time which is required to warm up is actually less. What takes so long is the fact that the oil is dry sump, with the tank being located away from the engine. The entire engine must be warmed, and it's different on a radial than warming a horizontally opposed engine.

Additionally, the engine must be cleared, and fouled plugs and oil in the lower cylindes are common. The engine won't run right until it's warm. It needs to be run at low idle RPM's until the oil flows freely; what lubricates at 800 rpm's doesn't suffice at 2100.

Leaving the airplane chocked and running is not common practice among ag operators. I've certainly never done it. Placing cardboard over the oil cooler and sitting in the airplane is common, but not leaving the airplane on it's own.

In certain back country situations, I've chocked a wheel with a rock, put the engine on one mag at idle, and loaded people and bags, but only under certain circumstances. In such places, these activities aren't unusual.

I don't recall meeting any crazy cowboys screwing around up there. I must have missed them. In Montana and Wyoming, hunting and flying on the same day is illegal, as it is in most states. Most folks I knew recognized that fact, and respected it. Government sanctioned activities such as predator control, are another matter, and are legitimate.

Okay, so let me get this straight. If hunting and flying on the same day is illegal, I can't go shoot a deer, and fly into town to visit friends to brag about it? Come on.... If you are flying low and slow during hunting season, someone might try to get your N# and report you. But why in the hell would "hunting and flying on the same day" be illegal? This is ridiculus. I grew up hunting and flying, and never did anyone EVER say it was illegal. That's insane. I did it for many years and never, never had anyone say something about illegality. Hell, I used to land on the gravel roads and talk to the game wardens, and never did anyone question me about it.

I know many a crop duster who starts his airplane 20 minutes before it's time to make the first pass, and goes back into the house for the rest of his coffee. Believe it or not, the airplane is actually running at idle power with a chock under the wheel, or with the tailwheel tied down. It might be hard to believe, but there is actually nobody sitting in the cockpit. The pilot really is sitting in the house watching the morning show. Just about every ag pilot I know does this (and the ones who don't just hop in and go in the morning). It's common where I came from, but it might not be where you are Avbug.

Just a little FYI, the best man in my wedding is from Havre, MT and hunting out of an airplane is just what they did. With the appropriate permits, it's all legal. They had the permits in the airplane while doing it, so no harm, no foul. I've been out there though, and seen some crazy sonzofbitches flying Citabrias, Cubs, etc. around with shotguns hanging out the door waiting for old wylie coyote to cross their paths. That was in the middle of the summer, they'd do it when they are bored. Legal? No. Does it happen? All the time.
 

A1FlyBoy

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"The fact that someone thinks shooting coyotes from the air is a "doh" issue, demonstrates a lack of understanding from the topic"

AvBug,

I saw this report and thought it was interesting. Shooting coyotes from the air is one thing, shooting your wing from the airplane is a "DOH" issue.

Who are you to say back woods hunting is out of my range of experience? You don't even know me. As stated above this report was interesting.

Did I "knock" that this accident occurred? No. I'm certainly well aware of the dangers of aviation.

Thanks for the lecture.
 
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avbug

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In most states hunting and flying is illegal on the same day. Hunters who will fly to locate game, and then shoot it, are thus prevented from doing so. I've done game surveys, tracking animals, and used to stay busy in the fall flying hunters to oversee their grounds before the hunt. However, they could not hunt on the same day. In several states it's also illegal to extract the animal the same day, by air. See your fish and game for specifics in your area.

As for running the aircraft with no one in it, I've been flying ag since high school, and have never seen it done. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I've certainly never seen it. I've operated radials, flat pistons, and turboprops doing ag work, and have never seen it done. Somewhere, someone is doing it, but I've certainly not encountered it.

Ag work in particular involves flying and operating an airplane in a unique way, to be sure, but most ag operators are professionals who are very serious about their craft.

A1flyboy,

I'm not saying backwoods hunting is out of your range of experience; I said nothing about that. I specifically addressed shooting coyotes from airplanes, as you will see by reading the former post; it's quite clear.

One might just as well suggest that flying an airplane under powerlines is a "doh" issue, and to someone not schooled in doing so, perhaps it is. Just like shooting coyotes in the air. However, it's a job function for certain lines of work (certainly ag work), and it's done. Shooting from the air is also a job function, and is done all the time. Do accidents happen? You betcha. Just like every other facet of the industry.

You'd probably be interested to know that a few coyote hunters and predator control aircraft have crashed as a result of empty shotgun hulls going down the space between the stick and the floor fabric, tying up controls. Most operators use a rubber or naugahyde boot down there as a result. Live and learn, or let someone die and learn; it amounts to the same thing.
 

aero99

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Very interesting subject. I have some land and pick off coyotes from time to time. The state has periods when they will pay you for the hides to try and control the population.

Whoever can shoot a coyote from a cub, is one hell of a shot. The coyotes I see and shoot are not that large. More the size of a large fox. Don't really seem them in the day either unless there is a cow down. I could see how hunting large game from a plane would be practicle, but coyotes? Hmm.. Learn something everyday!
 

A Squared

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OtterFO,

>>>>By looking at the NTSB database you'll find several accidents every year in AK where someone shoots themselves down.

I follow the NTSB reports pretty closely and I have never seen one where it was even suspected that they shot themselves down. Can you name one or two?

SheGaveMeClap.

Same day flying and hunting is indeed illegal, at least here in Alaska. It has to do with the "fair chase" doctorine. It prevents hunters from spotting game, then landing nearby and shooting it. In Alaska people can and do lose their airplanes for violating this regulation. You must wait 24 hours from flying (except on a scheduled airline) before shooting an animal. There is no restriction on flying soon after shooting the amimal. Generally this is applicable only to big game. you can hunt rabbits, ptarmigan, wolves, and such, immediately after flying. In some game management units, deer are not considered big game. If you've ever seen a Sitka Blacktail, you'd understand why. Additionally, there are certain areas where you may hunt caribou the same day airborne. This is bacause of a caribou herd which is growing rapidly and the wildlife folks are trying to reduce the numbers. A skiplane is a very efficient method of harvesting caribou in open treeless areas.

A side note: The late Don Sheldon, who pioneered glacier flying on Denali used to hunt wolves from his cub. Back then it was legal and there was a bounty on wolves. He used 2 semi-automatic shotguns mounted side by side on a frame. An automotive starter solenoid was attatched so that it pulled the tiggers. The whole shebang was mounted on his wing strut, and a switch on his control stick operated the solenoid. The contraption is on display in the Talkeetna Historical Museum.

regards
 

avbug

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Don Sheldon. Wow. There's a name that stands out. I have his book somewhere here, Wager with the Wind. Quite a man. I would like to have met him.
 

SheGaveMeClap

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All good posts, gentlemen, on an interesting subject. Where I grew up, hunting out of an airplane with a permit was legal. Hunting and flying on the same day wasn't illegal. I can see the logic behind it, but it is legal. Maybe not the most moral thing to do, and everyone knew everyone elses airplanes. Most people just avoided flying during hunting season, didn't want to pi$$ off their neighbors who were out looking for the big bucks.

I was nothing to waste two boxes of 12 gauge shells and get one or two coyotes. Like anything, shooting out of an airplane took a lot of practice. The coyotes and fox weren't very smart at first, they'd just run in a straight line away from the airplane. That was an easy shot. Once the animals knew they were being hunted, they'd zig and zag to avoid the pellets. That's when it got tricky, but it sure did get fun!! The big thing to avoid was shooting a hole in the strut, wing, or floorboard of your airplane. Made for a miserable day if you tore a hole in your airplane.
 

A Squared

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Don Sheldon, yeah, he was quite a guy. The most amazing part in "Wager with the Wind" is his rescue of the guys in Devil's Canyon with a floatplane. I've flown over Devil's Canyon and I can't imagine landing a floatplane there, not more than once anyway.

He also built what is arguably the most spectacular cabin on the North American continent, the "Mountain House" in the Ruth Ampitheatre by Denali. I've landed there to check it out, requires landing at about 6000' on the Ruth Glacier. The mountain house is octagonal (or is it hexagonal) with huge windows on all sides. It has a 360 degree view taking in Denali, the Ruth Ampitheatere, the "Moose's Tooth", and a lot of ice. It's still owned by Don Sheldon's widow.

regards
 
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