Court Ruling

GlorifiedCabbie

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Wow! The Flex pilots really lucked out with Judge Gwinn's recent ruling. The company took the position that the Flex pilots should be "folded-in" to the Options contract under Section 1.5, but the Judge ruled the negotiations were broad enough to be covered under Section 6. So, the company cannot force the Flex pilots onto the Options pay scales like they wanted to do.
 

doh

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Yes, AND he included the part of Sullivan's testimony in which he states the company didn't agree to VSP. So we know Weiss lied too!
 

shanes123

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Why are both sides so fast to say they one in court ? I didn't see a big win for this pilot group or the company. And what happened to the contempt charges against the big 4 ? Not a thing as usual? Seriously need a explanation on that This company and pilot group is pathetic
 

dime line

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Why are both sides so fast to say they one in court ? I didn't see a big win for this pilot group or the company. And what happened to the contempt charges against the big 4 ? Not a thing as usual? Seriously need a explanation on that This company and pilot group is pathetic
The company initiates.....the union reacts, it can never be the other way
 

shanes123

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I will ask again. The contempt of court charges ? What's the ruling what's the punishment?
 

cougar12

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I will ask again. The contempt of court charges ? What's the ruling what's the punishment?
The judge answered it. The contempt issue was moot because the union did not want to force the company to go back to pilots the had already taken and received the VSP prior to his ruling even though that is what was suppose to happen. He ruled however, the VSP that was negotiated with the union was an agreement and the company has to sign the agreement. I believe they will have to offer it to the pilot group.
Furthermore he ordered the company to start bargaining in good faith under section 6 (CBA or JCBA) .
Both sides agreed to arbitrate the Flare jet issue since it was scheduled for arbitration a week later so that issue was off the table for contempt.
 

cougar12

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I will ask again. The contempt of court charges ? What's the ruling what's the punishment?
I know a lot of pilots wanted them punished in court with a fine or jail time. But we want a JCBA more. Plus I think the VSP is going to cost them millions. They can not crew airplanes now, wait till they HAVE to offer the VSP. I heard 70+ people asked for it. They will not be able to hire anyone worth a damn to replace those pilots.
 

J3guy

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So those that notified the company last year that they wanted the vsp, and do leave in the next month or two for a job that they had secured, would be entitled to the pay out?
 

shanes123

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So what happens when the company continues the shenanigans and they could very well sign the VSP but not actually offer it. Or offer it to 1 pilot. Bargaining in good faith is subjective they claim they have been bargaining in good faith already. I just don't see a win here. If I am missing something I would love to have someone enlighten me.
 

cougar12

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So those that notified the company last year that they wanted the vsp, and do leave in the next month or two for a job that they had secured, would be entitled to the pay out?
We will have to wait and see. As S123 says we have to see how the company interprets the ruling and what they do. They could just sign the agreement and not offer it. Unfortunately, this company tends to do things less than straight forward and the union has to fight them in arbitration or the courts. They then use this as evidence of the union trying to disrupt company plans to support the pilots.

My hope for the pilots is the company and the union work together to interpret the ruling and come to an agreement before anything is released.
 

cougar12

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So what happens when the company continues the shenanigans and they could very well sign the VSP but not actually offer it. Or offer it to 1 pilot. Bargaining in good faith is subjective they claim they have been bargaining in good faith already. I just don't see a win here. If I am missing something I would love to have someone enlighten me.
I tend to agree with you I am just not quite as negative. It was a win. I think more than anything it improves the unions position in the eyes of the arbitrator.
 

Imissmypilot

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I will ask again. The contempt of court charges ? What's the ruling what's the punishment?
Read the decision very carefully. The judge gives his clear assessment in several areas without an actual ruling, leaving the door open on everything not "herebyed"

Just one is regarding the comtempt. The way I read it the judge found them definitely in contempt but to do anything about it would require the union to agree the settled beneficiaries of the VSP would have to give their money back. The union chose in the intetests of the pilots both former and future in lieu of the sweetness of punishing the executives. But make no mistake - the judge clearly said he would have. I also read the door is left open for him to bring down the hammer if they monkey around.

For instance, if they sign but don't offer... if they don't make the furloghees whole if more tham 25 Options take the VSP will be an interesting future debate.

Uncle's attempted delay cost him many many millions. At some point investors are going to question his judgement. I don't know, maybe the owners who just got a letter are paying attention now. Can you say perfect timing? Now how many Rencavages see the situation the same way a day later?

If Uncle doesn't work hard to settle a CBA now after this ruling and owners paying attention he doesn't deserve to be in charge nor should you want to entrust your future to him no matter how hard you yammer jam it.
 

GlorifiedCabbie

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Now with arbitrator Fishgold's help, The merged pilot group will get an MCBA,not a JCBA, or an ICBA(like the company wanted). The disparity in pay will have to be explained. If they can pay Red Label pay to some Flex pilots, Why can't they pay them ALL for doing the same work? And for the Options pilots... if they can pay Lear pilots what they do, why can't that pay include Phenom pilots which fly a plane slightly lighter? And now what happens? DF and JW are calling Flex pilots and telling them they will be "folded into the options pay scales". Where did that come from? Once again, scamanagement has it 180 degrees wrong.
 
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V1 Rotate

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And now what happens? DF and JW are calling Flex pilots and telling them they will be "folded into the options pay scales". Where did that come from? Once again, scamanagement has it 180 degrees wrong.
Someone just posted to Yammer worried about this very thing. They're also concerned that if you're not a MIGs, you can't fly a Flexjet aircraft.
 

doh

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There is a simple solution for that concern...:rolleyes:
 

doh

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Management's lawyer said no one would lose pay or anything else they currently have. And not one single proposal from the union would cost anyone pay. So unless management is lying, no one is getting rolled into the old payscales.
 

GlorifiedCabbie

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Someone just posted to Yammer worried about this very thing. They're also concerned that if you're not a MIGs, you can't fly a Flexjet aircraft.
Not quite correct. MIGs get to vote. Not a MIG?, you don't get a vote in Union business. As for the contract, what cannot be negotiated will be determined by Arbitrator Fishgold. Not everyone has to pay dues. There are certain people that object, so they have to pay a maintenance fee or make a contribution to charity close to the dues amount. The big thing the company likes is the fact that many of the senior pilots are not MIGs. They enjoy Flexbid and the company wants Flexbid to go away.
 

Imissmypilot

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Not quite correct. MIGs get to vote. Not a MIG?, you don't get a vote in Union business. As for the contract, what cannot be negotiated will be determined by Arbitrator Fishgold. Not everyone has to pay dues. There are certain people that object, so they have to pay a maintenance fee or make a contribution to charity close to the dues amount. The big thing the company likes is the fact that many of the senior pilots are not MIGs. They enjoy Flexbid and the company wants Flexbid to go away.
I don't think the charity thing is correct but I'm no expert.

It costs money to continue to administrate a contract for such a large pilot group. It is only fair those fees be mitigated, just like health insurance which we contribute to whether we use it regularly or not; at some point the safety net is used. If you don't support it fine pay a maintenance fee but you should have to pay it and not go around the intent with a charity donation.

My guess has always been scamagement is trying to bankrupt the IBT into acquiescence. Why else would they continue to delay, especially when it always ends up costing them so much money?

The yammer jammers spew outrage at the drop of the hat but absolutely no one has outrage for Kenn wasting our dues money on fishing expeditions and immature antics.

On another note, I am looking forward to the day all pilots who have up to this point listened to idiots like pd and fw in not paying. That overdue bill is going to hurt something awful. It's not going to be unaffordable (our dues aren't really high) but the knowledge they've beem gulliable pawns who helped delay their own benefit will be what hurts. Having to write a check for 18 months you thought you were going to get away with is sweet justice. I wonder if Frank will get run out of town tarred and feathered when the rest wake up?
 

shanes123

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FW is probably one of the biggest idiots of any pilot group I have ever met. The fact that he wasn't tarred n feathered years ago by Flex pilots really says volumes of what the Flex CULTure was like. not really much different then KR CULTure. I suspect thats why there is so little support for the union on the FLEX side
 

el raton

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FW is probably one of the biggest idiots of any pilot group I have ever met.
Really? He does his job well. He's safe to fly with, he works hard to please the owners... What do you base this on? You're performance?
The fact that he wasn't tarred n feathered years ago by Flex pilots really says volumes of what the Flex CULTure was like.
again, Why would the culture at flexjet require that FW be "tar and feathered" when he doesn't do anything wrong? He does a good job. Honestly, the IBT's culture has a low score because it protects the likes of you. You're a poor pilot. You've demonstrated your lacking ability to use sound judgment. Your character is lacking, you're stupid, you have openly slandered flex pilots in public...the list goes on."tarred and feathered" what a moron!
. not really much different then KR CULTure. I suspect thats why there is so little support for the union on the FLEX side
FW's a good guy. I respect him. I also thank him for serving our country.
You on the other hand...Do all onesky pilots a favor! Go away!
 
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