BIG NEWS at AE and AA

Airline Pilot27

High Speed... Aww shut up
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
82
Total Time
999999
This is Gregg Overman, APA Director of Communications, with the
APA Information Hotline for Thursday, January 17.


The following is the text of a news release that APA issued this
afternoon:


The Allied Pilots Association (APA), which serves as collective
bargaining agent for the 11,000 pilots of American Airlines,
today presented a proposal to American Airlines that is designed
to address management's stated need to preserve commuter feed to
American Airlines and keep the carrier's recovery going strong.


"This proposal addresses the needs of all parties," stated
Captain John Darrah, APA President. "While AMR Corporation has
stated that they will have to furlough American Eagle employees
if APA does not agree to their demands, our proposal will
preserve American Airlines, TWA LLC, and American Eagle jobs
while enabling American Airlines to continue its recovery."


According to Darrah, APA's proposal consists of a phased approach
that would return all flying to American Airlines, thereby
removing the primary job-security issue in the minds of American
Airlines' pilots: the outsourcing of American Airlines' flying.


Phase One consists of all 70-seat Regional Jets being flown by
American Airlines pilots.


This would prevent American Eagle from reaching the contractual
cap on Regional Jets. This step would also reduce the likelihood
that management will trigger the available-seat-mile (ASM) and
block-hour limits in effect on American Eagle's operations while
any American Airlines pilots are on furlough.


"Recalling American Airlines and TWA LLC pilots to fly these
70-seat Regional Jets will hasten the removal of this cap on
American Eagle," said Darrah.


Phase Two calls for AMR Corporation to exchange their 44-seat
Regional Jet orders for 50-seat Regional Jets and have them
delivered to and flown by American Airlines. Once all American
Airlines and TWA LLC pilots are recalled, American Eagle pilots
would rapidly flow-through to these new American Airlines jobs.


Phase Three would consist of the transfer of all other flying to
American Airlines, with the remaining American Eagle pilots also
transferring to the mainline carrier to perform the flying.


"To permit AMR Corporation to grow American Eagle at the expense
of American Airlines so AMR can feed Delta Airlines in California
and build an Eagle hub in Raleigh-Durham would result in further
outsourcing of our flying. That would be a huge disservice to
our pilots, particularly when 595 of them are currently
furloughed," he said. "If CEO Don Carty truly intends for
American Airlines to be the world's premier airline, he should
join the Allied Pilots Association in an effort to resolve the
commuter feed issue once and for all."
----------------------------------------------

For Eagle pilots this could be salvation or **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ation...the details will tell.
 

TurboS7

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
2,261
Total Time
19,210
AA needs to do something, I just bought a $187.00 round trip non-stop ticket FLL-LAX for my daughter. It was a great deal but they have to be hurting to let ticket prices slip that low.
 

FlyinBrian

Office Slut
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
355
Total Time
1300
Wow. This is huge news... I can't quite decipher it all though. I'd sure like to see a timetable for this plan. It sounds as though they plan on going for one list by having American absorb ALL jet flying.... Unfortunately it also sounds like Eagle pilots will get screwed during the transition as the furloughees from TWA take jet spots away from Eagle pilots. Of course this flying may put Eagle over the ASM cap anyway in which case it's not stealing flying... Whatever the ramifications, it's big news.
 

eagleatr

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
77
Total Time
5000
This sounds like a great deal for Eagle, but I think you'll see the chances of AMR acceptting this are zero. Just wait, this is only the second shot in this public war of what to do. Management will come back with a counter proposal.
 

surfnole

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Posts
215
Total Time
350
I don't know where the cheap airfares are.

I need to go to Colorado Springs from Orlando on 4/1 returning 4/5. Travelocity showed the cheapest fare as roughly $550 and it was flying on RJs all the way.

Comair from Orlando to Nashville, then Ozarks (never heard of them) on a Fairchild jet from Nashville to Colorado Springs. Some deal huh. Over $500 and I get to get crammed into an RJ to go 2/3rds of the way across the continent.

I think I will do a Saturday stayover and fly Frontier to direct to DEN on an Airbus.

By the way, one of my options had a leg from Dallas to Colorado Springs on a Skywest RJ.
 

jetexas

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Posts
833
Total Time
8000
AMR has a history of pitting one employee group against another to achieve their goals. While I think the APA proposal is a fantastic idea, I too, doubt AMR will bite. It sure would create some harmony around here and raise our dangerously low morale ten-fold, however.
 

MartinFierro

Flyin' Gaucho
Joined
Jan 7, 2002
Posts
89
Total Time
is now
:confused:

Somehow, I fail to see how this deal would be good for Eagle pilots. First, in no clear language does it ever state an "integration" of seniority lists. It only mentions "Eagle pilots will rapidly flow thru to these new American positions," or something to that effect. Any assumption that the lists would be integrated is dangerous. And talking about flow-thru...if AA/TWA are flying all the jets, how would Eagle pilots flow (based on our current agreement)???? The agreement expires in 2007? I haven't heard of anybody talking renewal. So maybe the "assumption" is that since AA would be doing the RJ flying, that means AA would be in a position to hire more Eagle pilots? Well, so far AA has not had a good track record of dipping into the Eagle well for pilots. Why should we believe this will change?

I see this as a proposal that no one expects to get accepted, not even APA. Call me cynical, but I see it as little more than political maneuvering. To pass, not only would AMR have to accept it, so would Eagle ALPA. And since it would mean immediately putting more Eagle pilots on the street, I think it has no chance.

I for one don't want to see this enacted. It would mean I'd be on the street for a very long time from Eagle. I agree with what someone else posted earlier elsewhere: Eagle pilots must stop looking at list integration with APA or flow-thru as a saving grace. We will probably end up getting shafted again if we continue to.
 

jcb071

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Posts
10
Total Time
7800
APA and Eagle

APA is only looking out for themselves. Anyone that thinks this is a good deal for Eagle has no idea what they are talking about. Tell me how is losing my job to AA pilots is helping me. I have a family to support just like everone elce. I would like to talk more, but it will just make me more upset than I already am.
 

publisher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
592
Total Time
20,000
Consolidation

They needed to counter the pub of American asking to expand Eagle flying.

As I said in another thread of the same subject, consolidation of regionals has now turned to distancing from regionals. The Comair strike did more damage than it appeared.

If American ever accepted this, it would say they are too far down the path to do what say Continental is doing, getting rid of their regional.
 

Bluestreak

Fitty-Six F100's rock
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
375
Total Time
Miller
Hoo boy ! Lemme see here....Phase I,II and III = more jobs for AA/TWA pilots,no "new" jobs for Eagle.How long to cycle 595 mainline pilots through this ? 595 pilots = another airline the size CHQ used to be.Will mx,F/A's,dispatch,ramp also be mainline ? Can you have Eagle F/A's working AA trips ? How many airplanes are we talking here ? At 4 crews/plane,about 70.Accepting delivery at 3/month,at least two years.THEN,to recall all AA/TWA pilots would be how long ?It would appear that an AE RJ Capt. would have to move to the 70 seater before flowing thru to the heavy metal.Just seems like another obstacle in the flow-thru path.Oh,I forgot-they'll call the 70 and 50 seaters AA....Hmmmm.Well,hasn't APA always had the Eagle pilot's best interest at heart,just like Airways mainline looks out for the wholly-owned pilots ?
 

Marko Ramius

Vilnius Nastavnic
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
378
Total Time
25 w/L
Assuming it's not a bluff, the big question in all of this is what's it worth to AMR to do this? If they consider this it will likely be because they want to see what APA will give up in contract talks for this. DL just reinstated its mechanic raise(eff. March), and if UAL's mechanics secrure at least parity, AMR won't have as much ammo for their pilot contract talks. If APA is willing to play ball in their new contract talks to get these aircraft, things could get real interesting. I don't know anything about Eagle's contract, but is there anything to stop AMR from placing a/c originally slated for Eagle on AA property? If not, and AMR is willing to talk about this idea, Eagle ALPA risks a lot by not being a party to those talks. APA and ALPA are different unions, so as I understand it all of the brotherhood & representational claims that the RJDC asserts do not even apply here. Look no further than the way the AA/TWA integration has been handled. The way I see it, as long as the flow is still recognized, APA could technically just negotiate a deal with AMR and let ALPA here what their "decision" was when it was over (my assumption here is that nothing in this deal renders the Eagle contract ammendable.) So while I certainly understand the skepticism of the Eagle pilot group, if I were a pilot there and AMR even thought about working with APA on this, I would want my MEC in the heart of those talks. The big question in any talks is what leverage does Eagle have other than offering to do the flying for cheaper, and that would be somewhat of an empty victory considering the length of their current contract and the other regional payrates out there. Again, I understand the skepticism, but if AMR decides to talk, it could be very dangerous to tell APA to pound sand.
 

RJFlyer

Wastin' time...
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
211
Total Time
a few
if I were a pilot there and AMR even thought about working with APA on this, I would want my MEC in the heart of those talks

Kinda sounds like what the RJDC has been trying to accomplish with ASA/CMR/DL
 

Airline Pilot27

High Speed... Aww shut up
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
82
Total Time
999999
We will probably find out what will become of these proposals sometime in March. AMR will wait until the last minute before it makes such a change to the status quo. This is when Eagle will hit the ASM restriction. In the meantime Trans Mistakes and **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**aqua (no offense to their pilots) will continue to reduce the amount of flying Eagle is allowed as we have pilots on furlough with possibly more to come. Some factors that may affect this will be:
-Our Scope Grievence with the "connection carriers" will be ruled on before then
-AMR beancounters weigh the gains/losses of a truly single carrier
-Whether our MEC will be allowed into any of these meetings.
Eagle pilots have given up way too much. I would sure hate to wip out that almost empty jar of KY out.
 

MartinFierro

Flyin' Gaucho
Joined
Jan 7, 2002
Posts
89
Total Time
is now
Personally, I'm inclined to think that this APA proposal has no chance of being enacted (thank god). Look at it from Ain't My Responsability's viewpoint: they have nothing to gain by accepting it, and a lot to lose. Does AMR gain anything by having AA pilots fly RJs? No, not at all. Do they have potentially a lot to lose? Heck yeah: headaches with Eagle, potentially having to pay mainline salaries on the RJ. Do they care about an integrated list? Hardly, in fact they probably don't want to see one so that they can continue to pit AA pilots against AE pilots.

If they reject it, they may have to furlough more Eagle pilots. Obviously, as AMR already is responsable for our rapidly approaching the ASM cap (by outsourcing flying to TSA and CHQ), they aren't centrally concernced about furloughs as much as the bottom line. That's my take on it anyway.

BTW, I'm also inclined to think that the company statement regarding Eagle approaching the ASM cap is more of a scare tactic to gain concessions from Eagle and APA to give them leverage going into the upcoming arbitration about SCOPE violations. Think of this: if AMR were to be able to get APA to agree not to limit Eagle ASM, then Eagle has a lot less leverage in the case against TSA/CHQ. If there is no ASM cap, then American Connection is not as clearly taking jobs away from Eagle. At least an impartial party would possibly be inclined to see it this way. Whereas with an ASM cap, Am. Connection clearly is keeping Eagle pilots on the street.

If the company really thought that they were going to have to furlough more people as early as April, would they actually recall 28 pilots, and plan to recall more in March, like they are doing?????:confused:

What do you all think about this? Meanwhile, I'm just hoping for no more furloughs and a lot more recalls!:)
 

alek

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2001
Posts
21
Total Time
10500
Eagle Flying

Always remember before AMR goes, public they already made decision.
They are the Company that works behind the closed doors. Just look at the TWA purchase. Personally, I think decision about RJ flying is already made. Eagle will fly RJs, and there will be no more furloughs from Eagle side, only TWA. APA will be against that but what is their choice. If they slow down again, AMR proved that they will lose in court should we say (45 Mil fine that APA has to pay) and AMR Management has GOOD FRIENDS in Washington so there will be no strike.
I think Eagle guys should not be afraid of anything because AMR has to grow Eagle to compete. Just look at the DAL stock. Only reason it is one of the highest ones, is because of ASA, ACA, Comair, Skywest.
As far as American Connection (TSA, Chitaqua..) those days are over. American is already trying to find Airplanes to replace American Connection. Just look at the the History of American, you buy Commuter or you cancel the Contract.
So everybody should relax , there will be no change in RJ flying. APA/TWA pilots are expensive to fly them.
Eagle guys good luck, and enjoy growth for 2-3 years.

ALSO,I WOULD HAVE TO AGREE, WHY WOULD YOU CALL PILOTS BACK IF YOU ARE GOING TO FURLOUGH SOON!

AMR had to aks APA first because looks good in the Media, and also when they go to court over RJ flying. They will say WE ASKED THEM FIRST.

GOOD LUCK TO ALL AND LETS HOPE FOR THE BETTER TIMES IN THE FUTURE.
 

80drvr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2002
Posts
341
Total Time
10000+
Re: Eagle Flying

alek said:
Always remember before AMR goes, public they already made decision.
They are the Company that works behind the closed doors. Just look at the TWA purchase. Personally, I think decision about RJ flying is already made. Eagle will fly RJs, and there will be no more furloughs from Eagle side, only TWA. APA will be against that but what is their choice. If they slow down again, AMR proved that they will lose in court should we say (45 Mil fine that APA has to pay) and AMR Management has GOOD FRIENDS in Washington so there will be no strike.
I think Eagle guys should not be afraid of anything because AMR has to grow Eagle to compete. Just look at the DAL stock. Only reason it is one of the highest ones, is because of ASA, ACA, Comair, Skywest.
As far as American Connection (TSA, Chitaqua..) those days are over. American is already trying to find Airplanes to replace American Connection. Just look at the the History of American, you buy Commuter or you cancel the Contract.
So everybody should relax , there will be no change in RJ flying. APA/TWA pilots are expensive to fly them.
Eagle guys good luck, and enjoy growth for 2-3 years.

ALSO,I WOULD HAVE TO AGREE, WHY WOULD YOU CALL PILOTS BACK IF YOU ARE GOING TO FURLOUGH SOON!

AMR had to aks APA first because looks good in the Media, and also when they go to court over RJ flying. They will say WE ASKED THEM FIRST.

GOOD LUCK TO ALL AND LETS HOPE FOR THE BETTER TIMES IN THE FUTURE.
Alek,

You're statements are somewhat incorrect in regard to the scope issues as well as the RLA act.

Here are some facts:

-Eagle operates under an exception to the scope clause in the AA/APA CBA. I'll send the relevent portions of the contract to you if you'd like them.

-Eagle is up against its contractual ASM limit. While they would like to grow Eagle, they can't. Don Carty publicly aknowledges this and says he will abide by the contract. Every CRJ delivery will trigger the retirement of two turbo-props. You do the math....will that create a need for additional pilots?

-The company already pushed a TA which transferred the CRJ to AA. It was rejected by APA for a number of reasons but the CRJ element was not one of them. So, management has already shown their hand on the CRJ issue.

-If the company chose to openly violate the contract, it would be resolved through an expedited arbitration process. I'm not sure that "asking" APA if they could violate the contract as you suggest will be a legally sound defense. This one is black and white. No need for a slowdown. Also, the 45 mil fine is resolved and Judge Kendall has stepped down and moved to private practice.

-Contrary to your statement, DAL stock is not valued any higher than AMR's. AMR has 16 buy recommendations vs. 13 for DAL. AMR FY02 EPS estimate is 3.14 with a P/E of 7.92 while DAL's is negative 2.42 per share. DAL's market capitalization is 3.6 billion vs. 3.8 billion for AMR.

My Opinion:

-everyone on both lists will ultimately be better off if Eagle operates as part of the APA contract instead of an exception to the APA contract. That doesn't mean their will not be short term negative consequences to some at both airlines if this comes to fruition.

regards,

former Eagle APA pilot (who would have preferred flying the Saab with an AA number while getting contributions to A and B funds even if the pay stayed the same).:eek:
 

lazy8s

USA Today Thief
Joined
Jan 8, 2002
Posts
96
Total Time
10000+
a little ahead of yourself.....

Alek,

You said :
"As far as American Connection (TSA, Chitaqua..) those days are over. American is already trying to find Airplanes to replace American Connection. Just look at the the History of American, you buy Commuter or you cancel the Contract.


A few points:

#1: It's Chautauqua not Chitaqua
#2: until you have personally viewed these AA Connection contracts, you don't know that they are cancelling the contract.

BTW: Eagle was given the option for STL flying and at the time, they didn't have the resources or ability to take over those routes when needed. Not until 9/11 happened and the furloughs came, did Eagle start expressing concern over the STL routes.
Day late and a dollar short.


Fly safe,

Lazy8's
:D
 

MartinFierro

Flyin' Gaucho
Joined
Jan 7, 2002
Posts
89
Total Time
is now
BTW: Eagle was given the option for STL flying and at the time, they didn't have the resources or ability to take over those routes when needed. Not until 9/11 happened and the furloughs came, did Eagle start expressing concern over the STL routes.
Day late and a dollar short.
Actually, this is not true. Our union at Eagle was fighting the TSA/CHQ flying long before 9/11. Some people may have noticed Eagle pilots with "AMR say no to alter ego carriers" stickers on their flight bags. These, which were put out long before 9/11, are just a small piece of evidence that Eagle pilots were fighting American Connection long before.

The only difference is that now it is even more important for Eagle pilots. As for Eagle being given the option to do STL flying....that was not the case.
 
Top