- Jan 5, 2002
- Total Time
Anyone know what the ASA pay scales are????
Interesting you should mention hot, buttered squash. You know for years, all the hot, buttered squash in the country was made by a large company in Atlanta. Then, a few years back, a much smaller company, also in Atlanta, started making hot, buttered squash. They only sold their hot, buttered squash around the Atlanta at first. They were very profitable, and began to market their hot, buttered squash all around the Southeast. They continued to prosper and be profitable. Many people felt it was because the hot, buttered squash makers and the smaller company were paid significantly less than their hot, buttered squash making counterparts at the large company. Eventually the smaller company stumbled upon some new hot, buttered squash making technology that enabled them to expand even further. The technology was similar, and in some cases more sophisticated than the methods used to make hot, buttered squash at the large company.By the way, I'll bet that if someone posted a message asking for the recipe for grandma's buttered squash, you'd find a way to get a scope dig in there. It gets kind of old, like a broken record...even for those who are on your side.
That's pretty funny too....(just when I thought we were making progress )....since we have less flying now (under the Delta Pilot's scope restrictions) than we did previously.
FlyingSig,I can point out where SkyWest is taking over DFW due to the lack of scope in the ASA contract....
No, I haven't. I knew that would be the response from someone. More than likely, you. It is your canned response to anyone at DCI who does not jump on your ALPA-bashing, self-pity, I-can't-upgrade-because-of-predatory-scope, RJDC bandwagon. If someone doesn't agree you accuse them of kissing a Delta pilot's a$$. Give it a rest.Have you privately e-mailed Flying Sig to see if he will write you a letter of recommendation?
It is a shame that you deride and ridicule pilots who respectfully disagree with you. My squash post was a light-hearted attempt at humor, and I imagine about 99% of the readers take it that way. Not everything is a personal vendetta against you or the DCI pilots (which I happen to be).It is a shame that you deride and ridicule the pilots that are trying to restore your career.
Strange. I am no expert on the RJDC, by any means. My understanding is that they (RJDC) are pissed at ALPA for not following the now infamous C&BLs, and seeking to nullify the "predatory scope" language in the most recent DALPA contract. Nowhere have I read about RJDC "fixing the Skywest problem". To the contrary, I know I have seen the RJDC propaganda advertised on the old Skywest web board. I find it hard to believe they would be looking for contributions from a pilot group that they consider a "problem" which needs to be "fixed".And yes - the RJDC has tried to fix the problem of Skywest. That problem is part and parcel of the the fact that we have five separate labor groups competing for Delta's domestic narrow body flying.
It is a shame that you deride and ridicule the pilots that are trying to restore your career.
You are correct. I don't get it. I am not a Delta pilot. Neither are you. I am a Delta (subsidiary) employee, but I am an ASA pilot. Given the friction that exists between the groups, and the fact that many Delta pilots are on the street right now, what is to keep DALPA from pushing to fly the RJs at mainline, with THEIR pilots.You just don't get it. If scope based on aircraft type is unenforceable, then DALPA will do anything to have us on one list & "all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots."
Would it? I don't see how. As I said, I am not a Delta pilot. Skywest certainly aren't Delta pilots. In fact they are not even ALPA pilots. Are you suggesting that ACA and Skywest would be included in a ONELIST proposal? That doesn't work for me. As I have said, I have many friends at Skywest. My issue with them rests in that we have different goals. ASA and Comair are bothpart of the Delta family and our goal is to see Delta (DCI)succeed and prosper. Skywest and ACA have no loyalty to Delta. The will fly for Delta, United, or anyone who agrees to pay their fee-per-departure.Now would that kind of inclusive scope also provide the perfect answer for your Skywest concerns?
No argument from me. I have never said ALPA is treating us fairly. We don't fill their coffers the way the big boys do, so that is to be expected. I certainly don't agree with it, but I am not sure this lawsuit will fix it. I could be wrong.You know ALPA proved that it could not be trusted when "representing" ASA and Comair pilots. We tried being "nice."
Is that so? I don't know. I have yet to see anything substantive on the RJDC site. Just crew room banter. What dialouge and negotiations? How come all I ever hear is solicitation for donations?The Court is forcing ALPA and the Delta MEC to address this issue - the fact that these parties are compelled to engage in a dialouge and negotiations is REAL progress IMHO.
They are??? Where can I read that for myself. How come my union reps don't tell me this.ALPA is slowly beginning to realize that this lawsuit is the dynomite that could blow apart their entire large jet / small jet apartied scope.
Wouldn't that be great? But what happens to the codeshare fee for departure carriers? That would leave them out in the cold. Again I ask the question, why are they soliciting help from those they intend to carve out of the deal. That is what smells fishy to me, and no one will answer the question.Once they figure this out ALPA will rush to end the alter - ego connection carriers and the only way to do this is single carrier petitions for airlines performing (XXX) brand flying.
On this, we are in 100% agreement. I just think we need the help of the big boys to accomplish our goals, and my mother always said you catch more flys with honey than with, you knowOne union, one level of representation, one airline, one list.
FL000,I don't know anyone who would argue with the ends that you want to achieve, but many of us are uncomfortable with the means: a plaintiff's lawsuit against the people that we work with every day. Now we have turned into unwitting spokesmen every time we occupy a major jumpseat. Most of them don't understand that most of us don't agree with the methods of the RJDC.
The friction between the pilot groups has nothing to do with it. DALPA is pushing to obtain RJ's at mainline - after all that is the way the current DALPA contract is written. ALPA has shown their support at US Air for just this type of solution. The US Air Express pilots have already formed their own group using Mike Haber to sue ALPA. (Now keep in mind the US Air Express pilots have done everything possible to obtain the favor of ALPA in the past and what has it got them - nothing)Given the friction that exists between the groups, and the fact that many Delta pilots are on the street right now, what is to keep DALPA from pushing to fly the RJs at mainline, with THEIR pilots.
A good idea - but there are problems. First, ALPA does not want ASA and Comair performing 40% or more of Delta system flying. Potentially we would have enough votes to be a threat at the Board of Directors. Further, without DALPA's support there is no way we could negotiate this.I would like to scope all DCI flying for ASA/Comair, thereby keeping all Delta flying in the "Delta family".
We share common interests with Skywest and ACA pilots who are under threat from scope on the United front. Recently the United MEC threatened to enforce contract provisions that would end their code share entirely. (pure speculation on my part is that if Delta scoped all Delta brand flying Skywest would organize with ALPA very quickly)But what happens to the codeshare fee for departure carriers? That would leave them out in the cold. Again I ask the question, why are they soliciting help from those they intend to carve out of the deal. That is what smells fishy to me, and no one will answer the question.
To be perfectly honest, I don't know. But that is the first time anyone has asked me. Personally, I don't think lawsuits are ever the answer. It's just not my style. I think its tacky, especially when it's against your brothers. I do allow for exceptions. For instance, Goldman vs. Simpson a few years ago in California was a real peach.Ok, both of you are against litigation to force ALPA to uphold their obligations to the dues paying members at ASA. What alternative do you propose that has not already been tried?
I think you're scaring the crap out of pilots like Toy Soldier. If I were a pilot wanting to go to a major, especially Delta, I'd stay the hell away from DCI based on RJDC threats. I wouldn't want to sit in front of a panel at a Delta interview and try to explain my position on RJDC and how it's helping pilots in ALPA and DALPA. What's that you say? Support is anonymous? Sorry, I don't lie.The reason why I keep harping on this topic is because it is an important issue and many pilots have not figured out how all the parts fit together. Further, pilots like Toy Soldier should have a way of learning what is going on before committing to a job. (when I hired in I had no idea of the differences in upgrade potential at Eagle, for example)
Neither, Prof. You've done a great job explaining your side, and I have spent 2 years mulling the facts. It is funny that you think I'm ill-informed because I don't agree with you. It sounds like the rantings of the religious zealot you might find preaching on a street corner. It's much simpler than that: we have different opinions, period.It is likely that I have failed to properly communicate what is going on, or that you do not care to learn the facts. Either way it is a loss for us collectively when our pilot group does not understand the issues well enough to use the opportunities provided on the Delta jumpseat to explain the issues that divide our union and provide positive solutions that enhance the careers of all pilots by working together.
If RJ's went to mainline (I assume you mean the 900s), this would complete the bridge that we need to cross the fuzzy border between our fleets. From those at DAL who are against one list, this is the primary argument that I hear: that we don't fly the same equipment. If we are flying 40, 50 and 70-seaters, and they are flying a 90-seat version of the same aircraft, then there's nothing in between; no division. In the long run, I think that would be a plus.The friction between the pilot groups has nothing to do with it. DALPA is pushing to obtain RJ's at mainline - after all that is the way the current DALPA contract is written. ALPA has shown their support at US Air for just this type of solution.
So to get DALPA's support you:A good idea - but there are problems. First, ALPA does not want ASA and Comair performing 40% or more of Delta system flying. Potentially we would have enough votes to be a threat at the Board of Directors. Further, without DALPA's support there is no way we could negotiate this.
Again, the ends are not the point of contention. It's the means. I think even a lot of new Delta pilots would agree with your statement.As you pointed out, everyone seems to agree on one list once they understand that it will not cost them seniority, rank, or privledge. It really is the best solution for everyone, including the Delta pilots.