another 'how to log' question

utahpilot

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I have heard differing opinions on the FAR's for this one, ya'll's input is appreciated:

If I am a CFII and ME rated Comm. pilot and I fly with another, how do we log actual time? Naturally we take turns under the hood while VFR to split the time, but when we go IMC, can I continue to log the time since I'm a CFII by giving dual, even though I'm not an MEI? I've heard you can give instrument dual in a ME aircraft without being an MEI, and the person (student) you're flying with can log dual received? As long as you're not giving dual on ME stuff, so I've heard. anyway, for discussion:

my friend and I fly to DEF from ABC. The flight takes 3.0 hours. I am at the controls for 1.5 of the time, as safety pilot for 1.0, and we are in the clouds IMC for .5 with my friend flying. Can I log all 3 hours, with .5 as dual given? Or can I just log 2.5?

thanks in advance!
 

StormChaser

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61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.
(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

You didn't mention what certificates or ratings your friend holds, so I'm basing my response off of the assumption that he/she is not instrument rated. The key wording from the regulation above is that you must hold an instrument rating on your flight instructor certificate appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which the training is being provided. Therefore, since you don't have your MEI, you cannot legally give instrument dual in a multi-engine aircraft. So you couldn't log the .5 as dual given.

However, that doesn't mean you couldn't log all 3 hours. It depends on a number of factors that aren't clearly defined in your example. If the .5 in IMC with your friend flying was also intended to be part of the 1.0 hours you were acting as safety pilot, then you would only log the 2.5 hours. However, if you mean in your example that you were at the controls for 1.5 hours, acted as safety pilot for your friend for 1.0 hours while in VMC conditions, and then your friend flew for .5 hours in IMC conditions, you could log all three hours. I say that because if your friend is not instrument rated, then you are no longer acting as safety pilot while in IMC conditions, you would be the PIC. So you could count that time as PIC time, just not dual given.
 

utahpilot

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I should have said, my friend is Comm/ME/Inst rated like I am, but holds no instructor certs. I posted this to propilot.com, and again I get two answers! oh well, I'll ask the FSDO since interpretations of the FARs seem to vary. What I got from propilot.com (not from DOC):

"Because you are multiengine airplane rated, you could certainly act as a safety pilot. In order to do any instrument training in a multiengine airplane you must have multiengine instrument privileges on your pilot certificate and instrument privileges on your flight instructor's certificate.

Look at FAR 61.195(c), which states:

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.


Thereore, a flight instructor, who only holds a CFII-A rating is giving instrument training to an Instrument-Airplane applicant in a multengine land airplane must hold the following:

Flight Instructor Certificate
Instrument-Airplane

Commercial Pilot Certificate or ATP
Instrument-Airplane
Airplane Multiengine Land

Look at 61.51 (g)
(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions."
 

StormChaser

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Based upon the clarification of what certificates your friend holds, I would say you should only log the 2.5 hours. Since you mention that your friend is ME/Inst. rated, then you can't log the .5 hours of instrument time as PIC time either since you were not the flying pilot. And you can't log .5 hours of dual given for the instrument conditions either since you do not have your MEI.

The response you received from propilot.com misses the fact that the instrument rating on your flight instructor certificate must be appropriate to both the category and class of aircraft in which the instrument training is being provided. So yes, the Instrument-Airplane rating on your CFI certificate address the category requirement, but you need the Multiengine rating on you CFI certificate to address the class requirement.

Below is a reprint of a FAQ that is very similar to the question you posed. It's from the FAA's Flight Standardization Team, not from the FAA's Legal Counsel, so it's not legally binding. However, it addresses the regulation in question, so I thought I'd throw it in.

QUESTION: Regarding FAR 61.195(c). The confusion arises about the "instrument rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft". What is the intent or meaning here, instrument is not class specific. Seems like it would be enough to say "...must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."

Perhaps an example would help illustrate the issue. Could an instrument rated instructor (CFII) give instrument instruction in a multiengine airplane if the instructor did not have a multiengine instructor rating or a multiengine rating on their commercial pilot certificate? The traditional answer to this question has been yes...but, make sure you don't get into the realm of multiengine instruction by pulling an engine or doing something else that would require multiengine skills. Has this changed with FAR 61.195(c)?

ANSWER: Reference §61.195(c), it states:

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

In reference to your specific question, the answer is NO. A person that does not hold an airplane multiengine rating on his pilot and flight instructor certificate shall not give instrument training in a multiengine airplane
 
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utahpilot

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good info, thanks for the post. you said "...but, make sure you don't get into the realm of multiengine instruction by pulling an engine or doing something else that would require multiengine skills. " if I don't do that, am I ok? based on Doc's response on Propilot, I am.

didn't want to open a can o' worms, was just curious. thanks for all the insight.

from propilot:

!) -- you are appropriately rated to conduct INSTRUMENT TRAINING ONLY in a multiengine airplane (AMEL only, but not AMES unless you happen to be AMES-rated). You may log PIC time when giving training as an authorized instructor. You may log instrument time when giving training in actual instrument conditions.

You asked:
"My friend and I fly to DEF from ABC. The flight takes 3.0 hours. I am at the controls for 1.5 of the time, as safety pilot for 1.0, and we are in the clouds IMC for .5 with my friend flying. Can I log all 3 hours, with .5 as dual given? Or can I just log 2.5?"

Answer 1: You may log all 3 hours as PIC time if certain conditions exist. Here is the breakdown:

A. 1.5 hours when you are flying is PIC time under FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i) as sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated.

B. 1.0 hour while the other pilot is under the hood is PIC time, assuming that you are giving training as a CFII (authorized instructor) [FAR 61.51(e)(3)], OR, 1.0 hour is PIC time if you have been designated as the pilot-in-command of the flight [FAR 61.51(e)(1)(iii)] since two pilots are required while he is under the hood.

C. 0.5 hour may be logged as PIC time while in actual instrument conditions, assuming that you are acting as an authorized instructor at the time (CFII privileges).
 

StormChaser

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you said "...but, make sure you don't get into the realm of multiengine instruction by pulling an engine or doing something else that would require multiengine skills. "

The above portion was not a statement I made, but was part of the FAQ that I was quoting. It was part of the bigger question, that asked if you could give instrument instruction in a multiengine airplane without your MEI certificate. The answer is still no, regardless of whether or not you are giving instruction that would "require multiengine skills."

As I said earlier, the response you got from propilot.com is incorrect because the respondent is claiming that you can give instrument instruction in a multiengine airplane regardless of whether or not you have your MEI. I'll reference the regulation again for further clarification. Note the bold and underlined portions.

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

In the case you mention:
Category = Airplane --> OK there
Class = Multiengine --> Not OK because you don't have your MEI

Therefore, the 0.5 hours of IMC cannot be logged as dual given because you cannot legally exercise the privileges as a CFII in a multiengine airplane unless you also hold your MEI rating.
In reality, the whole question doesn't matter much since your friend is also instrument rated. Unless he is out of currency, there should be no need to log the 0.5 hours as dual given on your part anyways.
 
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skydiverdriver

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I agree with Jim. Why? Actually it's pretty simple. I had single and multi-engine land ratings on my commercial certificate when I earned my first instructor rating. Which one did I earn? Instrument instructor. It had no category or class rating on it, just instrument. I later added multi and then single at the end. So, did I have a rating that was useless? Since my CFII had no category and class ratings on it, I was authorized to teach instruments in any aircraft. I believe the section stating you have to have cat and class ratings is referring to your pilot's certificate, not the CFI.

On a side note, you guys really get into these things, don't you? Thanks, it helps me to think more!
 
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