Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
American Eagle Flowback
- Thread starter Beetle007
- Start date
- Watchers 4
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
trainerjet
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2002
- Posts
- 507
I'm not sure if this is old news. I found it on another post and it didnt have a date ?
From APA:
SUPPLEMENT W ARBITRATION: Today Arbitrator Richard Bloch issued his ruling on the status of the May-August furloughees concerning their eligibility for flow-back positions with American Eagle. I am pleased to report that Arbitrator Bloch has ruled in APA’s favor, confirming that the pilots in this group who bid for a flow-back position are eligible to flow back to Eagle. This ruling is very welcome news for the 384 furloughed pilots who bid CJ Captain positions.
We have posted the full text of the arbitrator’s ruling to the Member’s Home Page of the APA Web Site in the “Headliners” section.
The May-August furloughees are comprised of 672 pilots overall. One hundred forty-one of these pilots were originally hired by American Airlines, and the remaining 531 pilots were formerly with TWA. Of the 384 pilots that put in bid preferences for flow-back positions, 87 were originally hired by American Airlines, and the remaining 297 were former TWA pilots.
I have contacted American Airlines management to begin the process of displacing the remaining American Eagle flow-through pilots. We will be working with management to notify the 384 pilots who bid for a flow-back position and to schedule their training.
As you know, as part of our 2003 contract, we had originally anticipated being able to acquire approximately 100 CJ Captain positions at American Eagle. After the ratification of our agreement, the ALPA Eagle leadership objected to the manner in which we negotiated our agreement with American Airlines management. As a result of the American Eagle representatives’ objections, it was necessary for us to renegotiate our agreement. The American Eagle leadership subsequently filed a grievance objecting to the May-August furloughees’ eligibility for flow-back CJ Captain positions at American Eagle. With Arbitrator Bloch’s ruling now final, American Airlines flow-back pilots may ultimately occupy up to 500 CJ Captain positions at American Eagle.
Once again, it’s fair to say this should come as very welcome news for our furloughees. I want to thank our Negotiating Committee, legal counsel and others who effectively represented APA’s interests in the negotiations and arbitration. Finally, congratulations to the flow-back pilots on your upcoming return to the cockpit.
That’s it for now. Thank you for calling.
From APA:
SUPPLEMENT W ARBITRATION: Today Arbitrator Richard Bloch issued his ruling on the status of the May-August furloughees concerning their eligibility for flow-back positions with American Eagle. I am pleased to report that Arbitrator Bloch has ruled in APA’s favor, confirming that the pilots in this group who bid for a flow-back position are eligible to flow back to Eagle. This ruling is very welcome news for the 384 furloughed pilots who bid CJ Captain positions.
We have posted the full text of the arbitrator’s ruling to the Member’s Home Page of the APA Web Site in the “Headliners” section.
The May-August furloughees are comprised of 672 pilots overall. One hundred forty-one of these pilots were originally hired by American Airlines, and the remaining 531 pilots were formerly with TWA. Of the 384 pilots that put in bid preferences for flow-back positions, 87 were originally hired by American Airlines, and the remaining 297 were former TWA pilots.
I have contacted American Airlines management to begin the process of displacing the remaining American Eagle flow-through pilots. We will be working with management to notify the 384 pilots who bid for a flow-back position and to schedule their training.
As you know, as part of our 2003 contract, we had originally anticipated being able to acquire approximately 100 CJ Captain positions at American Eagle. After the ratification of our agreement, the ALPA Eagle leadership objected to the manner in which we negotiated our agreement with American Airlines management. As a result of the American Eagle representatives’ objections, it was necessary for us to renegotiate our agreement. The American Eagle leadership subsequently filed a grievance objecting to the May-August furloughees’ eligibility for flow-back CJ Captain positions at American Eagle. With Arbitrator Bloch’s ruling now final, American Airlines flow-back pilots may ultimately occupy up to 500 CJ Captain positions at American Eagle.
Once again, it’s fair to say this should come as very welcome news for our furloughees. I want to thank our Negotiating Committee, legal counsel and others who effectively represented APA’s interests in the negotiations and arbitration. Finally, congratulations to the flow-back pilots on your upcoming return to the cockpit.
That’s it for now. Thank you for calling.
wingnutt
...recognize this?
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2002
- Posts
- 1,078
and heres the link http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=35232&highlight=flowbackswingnutt said:
cool...ive never quoted myself before
InclusiveScope
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2002
- Posts
- 385
Point : "A flow-through would fix things."
Counter Points:
A Flow-through would not stop the exploitation of Delta's alter-ego companies.
The #1 threat to collective bargaining power is the existence of alter ego. Not only do flow-throughs fail to address the alter-ego problem, but also when combined with ALPA's mainline scope clauses; they clearly encourage the creation alter egos.
If flow-throughs were viable alternatives to a merger, we would see them implemented between mainline carriers.
Did ALPA propose a flow-though for the TWA pilots when American purchased them? Did the Delta pilots offer a flow-through to the PanAm or Western pilots? Does ALPA's merger policy suggest flow-thoughs as a viable alternative to seniority integration? The answer to all these questions is an emphatic "NO." Flow-thoughs exist only when the mainline pilot group believes the "regional" aircraft are not pay compatible with the mainline fleet and they wish to restrict their number and operation.
Flow-throughs are employment Ponzi schemes.
A Ponzi scheme is defined as, "An investment swindle in which high profits are promised from fictitious sources and early investors are paid off with funds raised from later ones."
Flow-throughs are fundamentally the same. "Regional" pilots are "swindled" when they are convinced by ALPA that flow-though agreements will somehow offset the enormous losses caused by the restrictive scope clauses that inevitably accompany flow-through proposals. Invariably, only a small percentage of senior pilots will ever get to "flow-though," while the rest of the pilot group pays the price as a consequence of scope restrictions.
Consider a hypothetical "industry standard" flow-through agreement and how it would apply to a Comair or ASA pilot with six years experience flying Delta passengers and a seniority number of 500. Based on flow-throughs at other airlines, it is very unlikely more than 2 pilots each airline would be allowed to flow through per month.
According to AIR Inc., Delta hired over 1000 pilots between January 2000 and April of this year. If a flow through had been in place during that time, the pilot mentioned above would have moved up 22 numbers and would be about 6% closer to getting a new-hire slot at mainline. Of course he would now be frozen (as far as the flow-through goes) due to the mainline hiring freeze.
Once hiring resumes, and the same ratios hold, he could expect almost 25,000 pilots to have been hired ahead of him in the 20 years before he finally getting that new hire slot he was promised. Of course, Delta only has about 10,000 pilots total at this time. Do you see why many consider flow-throughs to be employment Ponzi schemes?
Flow-throughs do not address the numerous violations of ALPA's Constitution and By-laws.
As pointed out in the numerous grievances and the subsequent litigation, ALPA is clearly in violation of numerous provisions of their own Constitution and By-laws. A flow-through or preferential hiring program doesn't begin to address the issues concerning ALPA's egregious conduct.
Furthermore, a flow-through negotiated by a mainline MEC on behalf of its "regional" subsidiaries would constitute a further and continuous violation. In order to comply with ALPA's Constitution and By-laws, any flow-though agreement would have to be negotiated by the duly elected representatives of the affected pilot group. Since flow-thoughs are really hiring programs and do not contravene mainline working agreements, any involvement of the mainline MEC would be inappropriate and unconstitutional unless requested by the "regional" representatives.
If flow-throughs provided viable career progression, then why are pilots leaving American Eagle and Continental Express?
Every time a pilot leaves an airline with a flow-through for employment elsewhere, it’s a mini-referendum on the flow-through's viability as a career enhancing option. If flow-throughs really provided credible career progression, you would see little or no attrition at those airlines that had a flow-through. Pilots don't leave growing airlines like American or Continental, but they are leaving American Eagle and Continental Express. Why? The "career progression" offered by their flow-through agreements is mostly illusionary and very few pilots benefit from it.
The facts are that pilots leave companies with flow-thoughs for other employers because they know they will probably never be able to take advantage of the flow-though. If they waited, they know they would have nothing to show for their years of service at the wholly owned carrier. So they "vote" on the validity of the flow-through with their resumes and seek employment elsewhere. Some even bypass hundreds of their fellow pilots by leaving the "regional" and then gaining employment at the same mainline carrier a short while later.
Counter Points:
A Flow-through would not stop the exploitation of Delta's alter-ego companies.
The #1 threat to collective bargaining power is the existence of alter ego. Not only do flow-throughs fail to address the alter-ego problem, but also when combined with ALPA's mainline scope clauses; they clearly encourage the creation alter egos.
If flow-throughs were viable alternatives to a merger, we would see them implemented between mainline carriers.
Did ALPA propose a flow-though for the TWA pilots when American purchased them? Did the Delta pilots offer a flow-through to the PanAm or Western pilots? Does ALPA's merger policy suggest flow-thoughs as a viable alternative to seniority integration? The answer to all these questions is an emphatic "NO." Flow-thoughs exist only when the mainline pilot group believes the "regional" aircraft are not pay compatible with the mainline fleet and they wish to restrict their number and operation.
Flow-throughs are employment Ponzi schemes.
A Ponzi scheme is defined as, "An investment swindle in which high profits are promised from fictitious sources and early investors are paid off with funds raised from later ones."
Flow-throughs are fundamentally the same. "Regional" pilots are "swindled" when they are convinced by ALPA that flow-though agreements will somehow offset the enormous losses caused by the restrictive scope clauses that inevitably accompany flow-through proposals. Invariably, only a small percentage of senior pilots will ever get to "flow-though," while the rest of the pilot group pays the price as a consequence of scope restrictions.
Consider a hypothetical "industry standard" flow-through agreement and how it would apply to a Comair or ASA pilot with six years experience flying Delta passengers and a seniority number of 500. Based on flow-throughs at other airlines, it is very unlikely more than 2 pilots each airline would be allowed to flow through per month.
According to AIR Inc., Delta hired over 1000 pilots between January 2000 and April of this year. If a flow through had been in place during that time, the pilot mentioned above would have moved up 22 numbers and would be about 6% closer to getting a new-hire slot at mainline. Of course he would now be frozen (as far as the flow-through goes) due to the mainline hiring freeze.
Once hiring resumes, and the same ratios hold, he could expect almost 25,000 pilots to have been hired ahead of him in the 20 years before he finally getting that new hire slot he was promised. Of course, Delta only has about 10,000 pilots total at this time. Do you see why many consider flow-throughs to be employment Ponzi schemes?
Flow-throughs do not address the numerous violations of ALPA's Constitution and By-laws.
As pointed out in the numerous grievances and the subsequent litigation, ALPA is clearly in violation of numerous provisions of their own Constitution and By-laws. A flow-through or preferential hiring program doesn't begin to address the issues concerning ALPA's egregious conduct.
Furthermore, a flow-through negotiated by a mainline MEC on behalf of its "regional" subsidiaries would constitute a further and continuous violation. In order to comply with ALPA's Constitution and By-laws, any flow-though agreement would have to be negotiated by the duly elected representatives of the affected pilot group. Since flow-thoughs are really hiring programs and do not contravene mainline working agreements, any involvement of the mainline MEC would be inappropriate and unconstitutional unless requested by the "regional" representatives.
If flow-throughs provided viable career progression, then why are pilots leaving American Eagle and Continental Express?
Every time a pilot leaves an airline with a flow-through for employment elsewhere, it’s a mini-referendum on the flow-through's viability as a career enhancing option. If flow-throughs really provided credible career progression, you would see little or no attrition at those airlines that had a flow-through. Pilots don't leave growing airlines like American or Continental, but they are leaving American Eagle and Continental Express. Why? The "career progression" offered by their flow-through agreements is mostly illusionary and very few pilots benefit from it.
The facts are that pilots leave companies with flow-thoughs for other employers because they know they will probably never be able to take advantage of the flow-though. If they waited, they know they would have nothing to show for their years of service at the wholly owned carrier. So they "vote" on the validity of the flow-through with their resumes and seek employment elsewhere. Some even bypass hundreds of their fellow pilots by leaving the "regional" and then gaining employment at the same mainline carrier a short while later.
LAXSaabdude
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Posts
- 431
Not entirely true. Last year, AMR and APA collaborated to craft an illegal backroom deal in order to hijack the flowback agreement in their mutual favor, at the expense of the Eagle pilots, essentially grabbing all available RJ captain seats, instead of the limited number alloted to them by the contract. Eagle/ALPA grieved it, and won, but during the time frame while the grievance was being decided, AA was furloughing, and the pilots being furloughed during that time were in limbo, as far as their eligiblity to flow back to Eagle. It was decided that those May-August furloughs had rights to flow back.wingnutt said:
So we lost the last part of the battle, but we won the overall war, i.e., it was not the free-for-all seat grab that AA/APA wanted.
LAXSaabdude.
English
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 3,374
LAXSaabdude
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2002
- Posts
- 431
Well, thanks! I'll be on reserve in LAX next month (and probably the month after that, and the month after that....!) so I may have a little extra time. I may look into communications! Seems like that's the biggest complaint people have around here, so it may not be a bad idea.English said:
LAXSaabdude.
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
