A choice for the transfers still at Flex

luckydog

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I didn't make an informed decision, I made a decision based on a lie. Integration was NEVER going to based on DoH, tenure, longevity... it was going to be based on percentage. THAT WAS A LIE. So all the logic that is spun around that falsehood is crap.

I was then told I'd NEVER lose my captain seat. I should have gotten that in writing because now it seems that we stand to do just that. You signed an agreement the has the very really possibility of turning all but the top 130ish FJ guys into junior FOs or furlough fodder. There is no "fair and equitable" there.

You're asking me to see your sacrifice because you didn't move up? You didn't really move down either so, nope, so sympathy here. Practically speaking, our careers here are over, but numerically, you did all right.

It works out like this: the Options guys took care of their own, KR is taking care of the transfers, and the SLI guys took care of themselves and the POC (except GG; the guy that was most vocal about you not being on the SLI). Everyone else is just going to have to be content with making a sacrifice for the greater good.

kiss your a$$, sure, but I'll have to wait until the Options guys are done passing it around.
 

slowtation capt

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I didn't make an informed decision, I made a decision based on a lie. Integration was NEVER going to based on DoH, tenure, longevity... it was going to be based on percentage. THAT WAS A LIE. So all the logic that is spun around that falsehood is crap.

I was then told I'd NEVER lose my captain seat. I should have gotten that in writing because now it seems that we stand to do just that. You signed an agreement the has the very really possibility of turning all but the top 130ish FJ guys into junior FOs or furlough fodder. There is no "fair and equitable" there.

You're asking me to see your sacrifice because you didn't move up? You didn't really move down either so, nope, so sympathy here. Practically speaking, our careers here are over, but numerically, you did all right.

It works out like this: the Options guys took care of their own, KR is taking care of the transfers, and the SLI guys took care of themselves and the POC (except GG; the guy that was most vocal about you not being on the SLI). Everyone else is just going to have to be content with making a sacrifice for the greater good.

kiss your a$$, sure, but I'll have to wait until the Options guys are done passing it around.

When did anyone ever say percentage?
Why do you think you are going to lose your captain seat?
 

V1 Rotate

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I didn't make an informed decision, I made a decision based on a lie. Integration was NEVER going to based on DoH, tenure, longevity... it was going to be based on percentage. THAT WAS A LIE. So all the logic that is spun around that falsehood is crap.

I was then told I'd NEVER lose my captain seat. I should have gotten that in writing because now it seems that we stand to do just that. You signed an agreement the has the very really possibility of turning all but the top 130ish FJ guys into junior FOs or furlough fodder. There is no "fair and equitable" there.

You're asking me to see your sacrifice because you didn't move up? You didn't really move down either so, nope, so sympathy here. Practically speaking, our careers here are over, but numerically, you did all right.

It works out like this: the Options guys took care of their own, KR is taking care of the transfers, and the SLI guys took care of themselves and the POC (except GG; the guy that was most vocal about you not being on the SLI). Everyone else is just going to have to be content with making a sacrifice for the greater good.

kiss your a$$, sure, but I'll have to wait until the Options guys are done passing it around.
No one on the Flexjet Merger Committee promised you it would be straight percentage. True, that was the main objective and it's also true that 60% of the Flexjet pilots' percentage increased even when counting the the transfers as Flight Options pilots, the most conservative way of doing it. So, the more transfers that stay at Flexjet, the better your percentage will end up being. As far as your CA seat goes, yes, it's protected during integration. "No system flush." It's in McCaskill-Bond and reiterated in the Flight Options contract. Now, if your fleet goes away, there's a furlough, etc, there's nothing there that the Merger Committees could've predict.
 

doh

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I didn't make an informed decision, I made a decision based on a lie. Integration was NEVER going to based on DoH, tenure, longevity... it was going to be based on percentage. THAT WAS A LIE. So all the logic that is spun around that falsehood is crap.

I was then told I'd NEVER lose my captain seat. I should have gotten that in writing because now it seems that we stand to do just that. You signed an agreement the has the very really possibility of turning all but the top 130ish FJ guys into junior FOs or furlough fodder. There is no "fair and equitable" there.

You're asking me to see your sacrifice because you didn't move up? You didn't really move down either so, nope, so sympathy here. Practically speaking, our careers here are over, but numerically, you did all right.

It works out like this: the Options guys took care of their own, KR is taking care of the transfers, and the SLI guys took care of themselves and the POC (except GG; the guy that was most vocal about you not being on the SLI). Everyone else is just going to have to be content with making a sacrifice for the greater good.

kiss your a$$, sure, but I'll have to wait until the Options guys are done passing it around.
130 guys remain captains and the rest are furlough fodder? You need to put down that crack pipe. I'm thinking you are one of the junior CL30 captains who are off the chain about downgrading. I'm not sure who you are, but all you junior CL30 captains are not losing your pic seats. That's just not happening.
 

GlorifiedCabbie

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So do you think you could make a better side deal with Kenn? It hasn't worked in the past, so what makes you think things would be different this time? Just like he tried to do with Citation Shares, take the equipment and customers and let the pilots find a job somewhere else. The Flex pilots have no idea how lucky they really are.
 

luckydog

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So do you think you could make a better side deal with Kenn? It hasn't worked in the past, so what makes you think things would be different this time? Just like he tried to do with Citation Shares, take the equipment and customers and let the pilots find a job somewhere else. The Flex pilots have no idea how lucky they really are.
This entire deal is now Kenn takes the equipment and customers, Flight Options pilots take the seat, and most of the FJ guys find other jobs elsewhere. Over time, and mean a very short time, Flexjet has gone from a profitable business with a decent reputation to being run by Flight Options, flown by Flight Options, being Flight Options. It's embarrassing.

I really can't decide which is worse, KR or the Flight Options pilot group, you're both untrustworthy, corruptible, and incompetent.

Yea, we're the luck ones, that's really rich.
 

flexpilot

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You guys better all pull together or Ricci is going to screw you all.
 

GlorifiedCabbie

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I hate to admit it but Kenn already knows the playbook. Now that the membership is open to the Flex pilots, Kenn will gauge their solidarity by the number of Flex pilots that become MIGS. When I started out, I didn't want one penny of my hard earned money going to the Teamsters, but after Kenn showed his true colors, my dues seamed like a bargain. There was no way, after they singled me out, that I could afford representation on my own.
 

doh

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Lucky, please post the seniority numbers who got screwed. If you are going to be a mamnagement plant, the least you should do is post who you are bogusly claiming got screwed. Because 238 out of 299 Flexjet pilots are better off by straight percentage placement with this list. So who are the "100+" who got screwed.
 

OldCrow

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This entire deal is now Kenn takes the equipment and customers, Flight Options pilots take the seat, and most of the FJ guys find other jobs elsewhere. Over time, and mean a very short time, Flexjet has gone from a profitable business with a decent reputation to being run by Flight Options, flown by Flight Options, being Flight Options. It's embarrassing.

I really can't decide which is worse, KR or the Flight Options pilot group, you're both untrustworthy, corruptible, and incompetent.

Yea, we're the luck ones, that's really rich.

We are in this together, we have vested Pilots doing our bidding. You DO Know what a UNION is..i'm impressed, I sound like Forest Gump:)
 

luckydog

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Lucky, please post the seniority numbers who got screwed. If you are going to be a mamnagement plant, the least you should do is post who you are bogusly claiming got screwed. Because 238 out of 299 Flexjet pilots are better off by straight percentage placement with this list. So who are the "100+" who got screwed.
If you and V1 don't already have lists showing every FJ pilots seniority change under multiple scenarios, you guys are more incompetent than I thought.
 

V1 Rotate

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If you and V1 don't already have lists showing every FJ pilots seniority change under multiple scenarios, you guys are more incompetent than I thought.
Trust me, we have spreadsheets and word documents showing almost anything you want to know. If you're wondering what your percentage change was, take your original Flexjet number and divide it by 299, the actual number of Flexjet pilots not including the transfers since technically they're only temporary LOA pilots. Then, to be on the conservative side, use your new, larger OneSky number and divide it by 670. Your change in percentage is the difference in those two numbers. Now, depending on how many transfers stay at Flexjet, your percentage will increase slightly. Hope this helps.
 

Imissmypilot

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Lucky, please post the seniority numbers who got screwed. If you are going to be a mamnagement plant, the least you should do is post who you are bogusly claiming got screwed. Because 238 out of 299 Flexjet pilots are better off by straight percentage placement with this list. So who are the "100+" who got screwed.
If you and V1 don't already have lists showing every FJ pilots seniority change under multiple scenarios, you guys are more incompetent than I thought.
What's incompetent is to dare someone to do it. The short sighted bravado of this and other statements like kiss my ass are doing the pilot group no favors in licking their wounds and moving on.

There are several lists. I don't know how management did theirs but the one being shared with to top screwed shows 100 plus guys losing. The last thing this pilot group needs is a list of 100 guys by name floating around and pissing people off who didn't even realize they lost.

DOH, do this whole group a favor and gain a little humility. While I'm not one of the screwed I support their right to be pissed. Instead of pivoting that frustration into action, you've given them a while new reason to give up on the union. Why someone in charge hasn't put a muzzle on your mouth is beyond me.

And now we get to the point where no one, myself included, is willing to ruin their reputation by joining your merry mod squad. When you're not attacking each other, you're attacking guys you knowingly ********************ed over. They're smart guys, they know they had to be sacrificed for the greater good but instead of saying thank you you pour vinegar and salt into the wound. Who would want to sign on for that bs?

So El, lucky and everyone else who suffered, I say thank you even though apparently the union will not. Getting this behind us helps us move on to the only part that really matters regarding seniority, our contract. I will drive a "cargo plane full of rubber dog ******************** out of Hong Kong" if they pay me well enough, so seniority is only relative if they can't get a good contract.
 

doh

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I have no idea what made up list management is using, but as V1 said, we have all the calculations. The reason I'm asking him for those seniority numbers is because there are not anywhere near one hundred pilots who lost on a straight relative percentage basis. That being the case, I want to know where he got those made up numbers and what management promised him for being their plant. Because what he's trying to sell is not true.
 

GlorifiedCabbie

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Can someone pm me the list that the company thought was fair? When I went to their website, it told me I had to call in. That leads me to believe management was going to throw me under the bus.
 

luckydog

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I will go over this 1 more time, please read it carefully.

Flexjet is not 299 pilots. At the cutoff date it took about 380 clowns to run this circus. Counting any other way gives every seat past 299 to FLOPS, that makes it look like pilots from Flight Options are already flying OUR planes.

Some of the 380 clowns were on LOA from a different circus, FLOPS, NASA, IDFK, it doesn't matter. They were new hires just as if they came off-the-street. Indoc, new type, IOE, they were new hires. You had no DFR to them as FLOPS pilots, only as FJ pilots. Let KR or their union represent them as they see fit.

Now, take one of those spreadsheets, delete the column make Date Of Hire. Break each list into groups of 5%. I'll help you out, that means there will be 20 groups. Now mix our groups with theirs. Since each 5% block will probably have a slightly different number of people, mix them on a percentage as well.

The list will have the transfer guys listed twice, that's OK. They get to choose which number they want, isn't it great to be a FoK.

So the other guys don't like this approach, that's OK too. They aren't your friends, you don't represent them, you might even go so far as to call them the "enemy". As I understood it, both sides would have to agree to arbitration. If you thought you would lose, just don't agree to submit the lists. FJ isn't in any hurry, we make more money, and are supposedly growing. After KR starts winding down their operation even more, and guys are being put on the street, they might warm up to the percentage plan.

I hope that wasn't too hard to follow. You guys keep telling yourselves how great you did, I'll go back to not caring.

... and me a management plant... that's funny. People say the stupidest things on the internet.
 

Imissmypilot

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Break each list into groups of 5%. I'll help you out, that means there will be 20 groups.
I don't care who you are that the funniest, most sarcastic thing I've read in a long time.

The beauty of it is a year from now some people will still not know why.
 

doh

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luckydog:
So the other guys don't like this approach, that's OK too. They aren't your friends, you don't represent them, you might even go so far as to call them the "enemy". As I understood it, both sides would have to agree to arbitration. If you thought you would lose, just don't agree to submit the lists. FJ isn't in any hurry, we make more money, and are supposedly growing. After KR starts winding down their operation even more, and guys are being put on the street, they might warm up to the percentage plan.

I hope that wasn't too hard to follow. You guys keep telling yourselves how great you did, I'll go back to not caring.

... and me a management plant... that's funny. People say the stupidest things on the internet.

Yes, people do say the stupidest things on the internet. Both groups do not need to agree to have arbitration. And the union has a dfr responsibility to all of its members. That includes pilots from both carriers. Let me go over this one more time, very slowly for you; the list is fair and equitable for both pilot groups as a whole. The fact that you are butt hurt that we did not use a methodology that is unfair to more pilots, just because it moves you personally a few numbers up the seniority list, does not mean the list isn't fair and equitable.
 

Praetorian

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And the union has a dfr responsibility to all of its members. That includes pilots from both carriers. Let me go over this one more time, very slowly for you; the list is fair and equitable for both pilot groups as a whole. The fact that you are butt hurt that we did not use a methodology that is unfair to more pilots, just because it moves you personally a few numbers up the seniority list, does not mean the list isn't fair and equitable.
Spot on doh! Perhaps this will serve as a coda to this damaging and unproductive debate. We are eating our young here guys.
 

Helmsalee

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I don't know the details here as to when the SLI is final, but if you guys were able to do it without arbitration, good on you. That is rare. Now use that solidarity to move forward to a killer CBA.
Helm
 
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