135 duty times

jenga

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Im flying for a 135 jet charter operator. We get seven days (24 hour periods) off each month. ANY OTHER TIME we are on a 45 minute call out via pager(24 hrs/day, 23 to 24 days/month).

-is the time on a pager considered duty time?

-is this legal?

Due to the FAA's recent interest in Pilot duty times, this topic is the subject of great debate amongst our pilots.
91'ers, 135'ers, and 121'ers please respond with any thoughts. I'd really appreciate it.

thanks.
 

DC9stick

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I left a job 9 yrs ago over this same subject. It's not legal by FAA legal office interpretation. The FAA does not enforce it, All charter operators do it. The chances of enforcement aginst you are slim.
the lifestyle sucks bur it builds time fast so hopefully you can get a job with a life. Flight & duty time rules do not apply to pt.91:(
 

DC9stick

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Jenga, I noticed you have flown a Bombardier, does that mean you've also flown Ratheon's and General Dynamic's along with your Pipers or were those Lear Sieglers, or do I live in the dark ages where we fly Lears, Challengers,Cessnas Beechs and Pipers amongs't others?
 

FL000

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For non-scheduled operations, you must receive thirteen 24-hour duty-free periods each calendar quarter. Sounds like they have that covered.

However, for daily rest, look at the time that any given trip assignment is PLANNED to end. Then, look back 24 hours. In that 24-hour period, you must be able to find 10 hours of rest. Pager time is neither rest nor duty. In other words, you should be on the pager only 14 hours a day, max. Even then the last couple of hours are virtually unusable, depending on the trip that pops up.

There are exceptions to the flight time limitations in unscheduled 135 ops, but NONE for the 14-hour duty day. It is rock-solid. We went over this many times with our POI.

Reference FAR 135.267
 

jenga

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exceeding 135 duty times

RE:135- on pager=on duty? (see 1st post from me)

Thanks DC9stick and FL000. appreciate the info. Obviously, I realize there are no duty times for part 91. I was mainly encouraging fractional pilots(and anyone) to respond (as their ops specs usually incorporate some "duty" limitations). I basically just wanted anyone to throw out even half baked ideas or experiences.

I've sort of been on edge as of late because of the FAA's "widened" area of interest.

DC9stick, as you left a co. awhile ago, I too am considering leaving soon. Unfortunately, with this co., we DONT log a lot of time quickly. What to do...... Oh, to answer your
question, Bombardier? I ride all their watercraft-many different sizes. No, Learjet, Gates, Bombardier, whatever you want to call em.

Thanks again.
Jenga

ps: please anyone help!
 

Corp Pilot

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FL000 did a great job summing it up for non-sched 135 with the exception of the last statement (14 hour duty day).

There is no "duty day" for non-sched. You operate under 135.267 a,b,d, e and f, which requires a "rest lookback".
(c is for schedule operations which DOES have a 14 hour duty day and it is rock solid with no exceptions as pointed out by FL000).
What you have is the look back requirement based on the "planned" completion of the assignment. The FAA used the terminology "planned" not "actual" completion or even just completion of the assignment. You can exceed this look back period and be legal as long as you have a reasonable means of explaining to the FAA (if it were to come up) why you did not meet your "planned" completion time. If your pax were late, or there was a ground stop, etc. (This does not apply for 121 carriers anymore).

FL000, I share the same frustration that you might feel. I have received different answers from different POIs on many of the FARs. The info I base my information on was obtained from the DTW and CLE FSDOs and DOC's FAR Forum.

Hope this helps.

Fly Safe,

Corp Pilot
 

avbug

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Pager time does not equate to duty time. However, pager time is not rest time, which must be free of all duty, assignment, or obligation. If one is obligated to respond to a pager, one is not receiving rest. DC9Stick is correct; the FAA has held that this is not rest, but does not actively enforce it. This does not man that it cannot, or will not be enforced.
 

FL000

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Corp Pilot,

I lived and worked under those regs for over a year. I read over them thoroghly before posting, and I still don't get it. I think that speaks volumes about the FARs. Thanks for the follow-up.

For those who are really concerned about interpretation, there are good books out there with case history of violations/FAA actions for 135 ops. Unfortunately, I've forgotten the name of the one I used to use. If anyone knows of one for 121, how about posting the title/author

Thanks,
FL000
 
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