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Thread: Landing mins

  1. #11
    Registered Aviator dustrpilot's Avatar
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    I knew I shoulda just kept quiet. Lol


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  2. #12
    unpredictable member belchfire's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Groucho;2545979]
    Quote Originally Posted by dustrpilot View Post
    If the .com is part 91 he can try it, you can't.

    As you know, if you or the . Com flight gets to mins and sees the approach lights, it/ you can continue to 100' above mins and land if certain criteria is met.

    I was just reading this older thread and I had a friend get busted by the FEDS on this one. It's a stinker... If you read FAR 91.175 closely you will see the following: 91.175 (3) i -

    (3) Except for a Category II or Category III approach where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:
    (i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.


    The kicker is that Red Terminating Bars AND side row bars are only a part of the ALSF II landing light system. That's what are on CATII and CATIII runways. Red Terminating Bars are on the ALSF I system. If the runway under discussion has minimums of 3/4 it may not have an ALSF I or II light system.


    My friend got dinged by the FED's on this when he tried to talk his way out of this. He didn't read the fine print. It was a CAT I high mins runway with an MALSR system that didn't have the red side or terminating bars.
    I don't doubt that the feds would bust someone in the situation you've described but like you those feds didn't read or understand all of 3 (i) either. Any or all of the listed lighting will get you that 100 feet as quite simply not all approach lighting systems are the same. And if the feds in question weren't in the aircraft they had no fracking idea what the visibility was in and around the touchdown zone which can be and most likely is vastly different from that of a tower cab 75 or 100 feet up in the goo.

    https://iflyamerica.org/misunderstanging_part91.asp

    The accident in mentioned in that article (at KIRK) was a now defunct airline I worked for when it happened. There were a bunch of factors including fatigue and the huge yard light on a barn that was never investigated in spite of my mentioning it...Rwy 36 now has an ILS as a result of the accident. In fact I was flying the same four day sequence two days behind the accident crew's. They were shooting their eighth approach of the day, no autopilot, at nearly 15 hours of duty after a 10 hour layover.

    Now if you've never been at the MDA on a Localizer/DME on a dark and stormy night such that you turned off the landing lights to cut the glare and be able to see the runway environment better (please tell me you don't drive with your high beams on in the fog!) you might not understand or believe me but I've been there and done that and it's perfectly safe. Not all ALS's are created equal but if you are stabilized, can pick up the Threshold and VASI you're in good shape and the red lights of the VASI are frequently the first to show up and they're much farther away than any terminating bars (if installed). Just be damned sure you know which side of the runway the VASI is on.

    I'll also assure everyone here that there is a huge difference in acquiring the runway environment from an aircraft going between 80-100 kts with a cockpit that puts eye level 10 feet or less above the ground when the mains touch and an airplane doing 160 or better with eye level above 30 feet in the air when the mains touch-it's a really huge difference!

    One Chief Pilot of mine said that you had to ask yourself "Is it safe, is it smart and then is it legal" which should be the order such things are considered in as the legalities can't encompass every situation. We kind of butted heads one day over that after he'd been in the office for a bit longer and had become more of a management type but the question became meaningless-while we were discussing the wisdom of "going and taking a look" the field in question went below mins as I predicted it would with the extensive local knowledge I had gathered over the years and we couldn't even take off so I guess I was right. Or maybe I was just being a bit spooked-it was KIRK again!

    Most importantly, even if all the legalities are met you have to be on your game if you're going to accept an approach under those conditions and if you have any doubts, yeah-just go somewhere else before committing to what should likely end up in a missed approach or possibly much worse.
    Last edited by belchfire; 09-21-2017 at 01:45.
    Antifederalist thought is the built-in American antidote for the ills of the American federal republic.

  3. #13
    Registered Aviator dustrpilot's Avatar
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    I've read it and understand the regs concerning approach light requirements and when you can and can't attempt or continue an approach. I abbreviated my response to answer the question as to why an aircraft was able to try that approach.
    My job for the last 9 years is fly Ag. I've done some instrument flying occasionally in a turbine twin during this time, but just enough that I felt like I needed to study like hell to prepare for every flight.
    Like you, I've flown a Jetscream all day, and I'll never forget hand flying approaches to Podunk airports to mins all day. What I haven't done much of is single engine IFR. I've bought a plane last year, had new radios put in it and just recently a new engine. I've had a instrument currency check 6 months ago and I'm about to do it again. My intention is to get one every 6 months. I'm still very cautious about what type of weather I fly in, but several months ago, the mid south was socked in. BAD! Sky obscured 1/8 mile from the the south border of Arkansas to Chicago. I was watching on flightaware to see if any single engine planes were flying. Sure enough, an airplane similar to mine had departed south Louisiana for a small airport in Missouri. I pulled up the weather for airport and it reported 1/8 mile, not to mention all of the sigmets for icing from around 2 thousand to the flight levels along his route. I was truly worried for him, if for no other reason because of fuel range. Unless he has more fuel capacity than I do, he didn't have the range to fly to better weather if he couldn't land at his destination.
    He attempted the 1/8 mile approach and missed, then flew about 25 miles south to a 1/4 mile airport and made it.
    For the record, I won't ever intentionally do that, but I have sprayed at night, so I got that going for me

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