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Thread: The end of Comair

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohh Porterhouse View Post
    Personally, I see Delta starting up their own regional fleet here in a few years. They are keeping Comair's certificate active in order to do so. First Comair, next Pinnacle. I see an announcement coming out the next couple months about Pinnacle and the beginning of their closure as well. Hate to see that happen but very possible in my opinion.

    Delta bean counters have quite a bit on the chopping block. Just today they pulled the contract for Regional Elite and issued the RFP for their handling. Regional Elite is closing up shop obviously. A lot of former Comair ground personnel went there and now they are going to be out of a job. Pinnacle lookout. I think you are next on the chopping block.

    Comair's certificate is not being kept. It will be surrendered to the FAA on or before 12/31/12. It may not be sold or transferred.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by pilotyip View Post
    Isn't that because all the pilots sold their stock? or failed to exercise control through a voting block? why did ESOP fail?
    UAL declared BK.....Do the math.
    "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."
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  3. #183
    Registered Aviator pilotyip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBRstreetgang View Post
    UAL declared BK.....Do the math.
    Yes I heard about that, it was in all the papers. but the ESOP was back in the mid-80's why did it not work then?
    Fly because you like to, if you are in it for the respect, prestige, recognition or money you may be disappointed.

  4. #184
    Registered Aviator Freebrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Lee View Post
    Gojets and others do it so cheap, that it would be impossible to match their costs. The also includes the FAs, mechanics, and ramp/gate people. Instead, just cap the number and throw in a ratio that keeps it there. That is what the new contract did.


    Bye Bye---General Lee
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  5. #185
    Tuberriffic thepotato232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pilotyip View Post
    Yes I heard about that, it was in all the papers. but the ESOP was back in the mid-80's why did it not work then?
    I think you're a little off on your timeline - the ESOP happened in 1994. The ugliness at UAL in the 80's was not about employee ownership, but it may have sown the seeds of the idea.

    Following the ESOP, hindsight suggests that the new owners failed to translate their new-found leverage into a cohesive agenda. Each labor group ended up at loggerheads with management (and sometimes with each other) over contract improvements, and future governance of the corporation was a secondary concern. When UAL faced bankruptcy and the prospect of all stock becoming null and void, decision making power rested with the board of directors, of which the employee owners controlled only three seats. With labor's voice now safely irrelevant, and with a sympathetic government backing them, the board set United on its current path.

    That's the Cliff's Notes version anyway, and there's still plenty of "spirited debate" over exactly what group is at fault for the ESOP's failure. And then you get comments like:
    Quote Originally Posted by russtgol
    Wrong Wrong Wrong......It was whipsaw!!!!!!! Damn that whipsaw!!!!!
    ...which leave me confused about the mess all over again.
    Last edited by thepotato232; 08-11-2012 at 21:49.

  6. #186
    Registered Aviator pilotyip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepotato232 View Post
    I think you're a little off on your timeline - the ESOP happened in 1994. The ugliness at UAL in the 80's was not about employee ownership, but it may have sown the seeds of the idea.

    Following the ESOP, hindsight suggests that the new owners failed to translate their new-found leverage into a cohesive agenda. Each labor group ended up at loggerheads with management (and sometimes with each other) over contract improvements, and future governance of the corporation was a secondary concern. When UAL faced bankruptcy and the prospect of all stock becoming null and void, decision making power rested with the board of directors, of which the employee owners controlled only three seats. With labor's voice now safely irrelevant, and with a sympathetic government backing them, the board set United on its current path.

    That's the Cliff's Notes version anyway, and there's still plenty of "spirited debate" over exactly what group is at fault for the ESOP's failure. And then you get comments like:

    ...which leave me confused about the mess all over again.
    Thanks for the update, it has been a long time since reading "Hard Landing"
    Fly because you like to, if you are in it for the respect, prestige, recognition or money you may be disappointed.

  7. #187
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    ESOP's fail in general, because "owner-employees" are inclined to choose immediate-short term increases in benefits as opposed to long term capital investments which in the end result in better conditions and higher stock value....the "blame" for the UAL ESOP was laid at the feet of the machinists union...accurate or not who's to say....
    One of the most useless things in aviation is a 25yr old flight attendent on top of a 50yr old Captain...but I find it quite useful I must say...

  8. #188
    Registered Aviator flaps30's Avatar
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    Six years

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Falcon View Post
    ESOP's fail in general, because "owner-employees" are inclined to choose immediate-short term increases in benefits as opposed to long term capital investments which in the end result in better conditions and higher stock value....the "blame" for the UAL ESOP was laid at the feet of the machinists union...accurate or not who's to say....

    Six years, wow .

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