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Thread: Travel Management-Elkhart IN. ????

  1. #21
    Registered Aviator skeeter666's Avatar
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    Chief pilot left for a job with more pay. How is it that some have 7/7 and other are 8/6?

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    Travel Management Company

    The Chief Pilot experienced burnout after working at the company for one year.They replaced his position with three pilots that were already working for them.
    Most pilots are unhappy with the changes being made and will be leaving after their year contract has expired.
    Any company that models themselves after Flight Options will eventually fail.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BEfly View Post
    I hear they are. Mostly Beechjets. Most of their business is Sentient Jet. 7 on/7 off is my buddy's schedule. Can live anywhere. Industry standard pay/benefits. Rapid growth. hope that helps
    Industry standard looks like this:

    Quote:
    All new hires will start on 18 day schedule pay. First year 18 day FO pay is 69,188 base pay.

    7&7 Base Wage Table: PIC/ F/O & F/O Over 40K lbs.
    1 $87,500........1 $56,875 $65,000
    2 $90,563 .......2 $58,866 $67,275
    3 $93,732 .......3 $63,738 $69,630
    4 $97,013 .......4 $65,969 $72,067
    5 $100,408 .....5 $68,278 $74,589
    6 $103,923 .....6 $72,746 $77,200
    7 $107,560 .....7 $75,292 $79,902
    8 $111,324 .....8 $77,174 $82,698
    9 $115,221 .....9 $79,104 $85,593
    10 $119,254 ....10 $81,081 $88,588
    11 $123,427
    12 $127,747
    13 $132,219
    14 $136,846


    Base pay prior to OT, Holiday, Ext Days

    15 Day Flex Base Wage Table: PIC F/O&/F/O Greater Than 40K lbs

    1 $96,250 .........1 $62,563 $71,500
    2 $99,619 .........2 $64,752 $74,003
    3 $103,105 ........3 $70,112 $76,593
    4 $106,714 ........4 $72,566 $79,273
    5 $110,449 ........5 $75,105 $82,048
    6 $114,315 ........6 $80,020 $84,920
    7 $118,316 ........7 $82,821 $87,892
    8 $122,457 ........8 $84,892 $90,968
    9 $126,743 ........9 $87,014 $94,152
    10 $131,179 ......10 $89,189 $97,447
    11 $135,770
    12 $140,522
    13 $145,440
    14 $150,531

    Base pay only...


    18 Day Fixed Base Wage Tables: PIC F/O& F/O Greater Than 40K lbs

    1 $106,444 .......1 $69,188 $79,073
    2 $110,169 .......2 $71,610 $81,840
    3 $114,025 .......3 $77,537 $84,704
    4 $118,016 .......4 $80,251 $87,669
    5 $122,147 .......5 $83,060 $90,738
    6 $126,422 .......6 $88,495 $93,913
    7 $130,847 .......7 $91,593 $97,200
    8 $135,426 .......8 $93,882 $100,602
    9 $140,166 .......9 $96,229 $104,123
    10 $145,072 ......10 $98,635 $107,768
    11 $150,149
    12 $155,405
    13 $160,844
    14 $166,473

    Base pay only.



    ...not this:

    Captain FO
    yr 1 $60,000 $40,000
    yr 2 $61,800 $41,200
    yr 3 $63,654 $42,436
    yr 4 $66,837 $44,558
    yr 5 $68,842 $45,895
    yr 6 $70,907 $47,272
    yr 7 $74,452 $49,636
    yr 8 $76,686 $51,125
    yr 9 $78,987 $52,659
    yr 10 $81,357 $54,239
    yr 11 $83,798 $54,239
    yr 12 $86,312 $54,239
    yr 13 $88,901 $54,239
    yr 14 $91,568 $54,239
    yr 15 $94,315 $54,239

  4. #24
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    I have to laugh when pilots quote "Industry Standard" wages, then reference the highest pay rate scale they can find.
    Also, the rate scale posted above references aircraft "over" 40k lbs and "greater than" 40k lbs. Last time I checked, Beech Jets were less than half that. I am not sure what the difference is between "over" and "greater than". I am a little slow sometimes.
    I have found that there is no such thing as "industry standard". Pay rates, schedules, rules, morale and quality of life are not the same at any two flight departments. It is kind of like choosing a girl friend or wife. There are good ones, bad ones, fat ones and skinny ones. Some make alot of money and some have assets that money just can't buy. You try to find the one that best meets your goals, lifestyle and desires and hope for the best. If you don't like the job or woman you have, it is not their responsibility to conform to your wishes. Besides, since as pilots we are Gods gift to employers, there should be no shortage of employers who are just begging to pay us a fortune and let us set our own schedules.............right?
    We all know the grass is greener on the other side...

  5. #25
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    You got it wrong Corp, the right column only is "F.O. over 40k lbs". The left two are all other jets (Capt/F.O.) including Beechjets and all Citations under 40k lbs. My complaint is that companies like this and all the regionals have driven salaries down so low that truck drivers make more money than jet pilots. They would have you believe that you should be paying them to fly. This is the reason that unions have become so popular at places where 10 years ago, the pilots themselves would have thrown a union rep out. At least NJA is finally paying pilots close to what they are worth.
    Last edited by *#$% Headwinds; 12-03-2007 at 19:50.

  6. #26
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    Headwinds,
    My mistake on the FO over 40k lbs column.
    I stand by my assessment though. While Net Jets may start FOs at a salary in excess of $56k, I think you will struggle to make a case that this is industry standard or even average. If this is used as an "industry std" then ALL of the major pax airlines are hiring pilots below industry std and below that of many corporate and charter operators. The regionals and other companies that "create" jobs, are only doing what anyone trying to run a profitable business would do. Get the highest return for the lowest investment. Returns on investment in aviation are minimal if not negative in many cases. I am not trying to defend the wages, but I am attempting to justify them. As long as pilots will work for "below industry std" wages, businesses will employ them. We are all guilty of the same practice. We want the most we can get for our dollar. When you buy a car I will bet you don't pay more for extra airbags, or other safety features. You figure that any car you buy meets std government guidlines. Just as every pilot meets std government qualifications.
    This being said, I believe that wages for pilots will increase significantly and continue to increase for the forseeable future. The supply and demand has seen a drastic course reversal. There are no longer a pool of qualified pilots. There is, however, a backlog of new aircraft being produced, baby boomers retiring and not enough pilots to keep up with the demand. I believe that you will see the top wages being paid to non-union, non airline or fractional pilots. People who own multi-million dollar aircraft are going to have to pay top wages to keep quality people. While the union pilots will do well and have the ability to maintain a good lifestyle, the corporate opportunities will produce the highest paid pilots.
    As of today, the Net Jets pay scale is not (in my opinion) representative of "industry standard" pay. Over the next few years, I believe it will be.
    Fly Safe

  7. #27
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    Major airlines do generally start salaries out low. However, that is not your lifelong salary. These poor TMC pilots are never going to make any more in real dollars than they make day one.

    The idea that there is little ROI on aviation business is nothing new to pilots. It astounds me that people are willing to invest in aviation with the dismal earnings so common in the industry.

    The problem I have with that is, the pilots and mechanics and other employees do not have the word "entrepreneur" in their job titles. It is wrong for investors to make money on the backs of employees. If a company cannot make money without screwing its employees, it has a faulty business plan. Maybe they ought to teach business people that the customer is supposed to be the source of profit, not the employees. If you cannot make a buck and pay your employees appropriately, then you need to charge your customers more. If you cannot charge your customers more, then you might be in the wrong business.

  8. #28
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    Many of these "entrepeneurs" are losing money but they continue to pay all of their employees. And if they decide that they are in the "wrong" business, as you suggest and shut down the operation, these employees who were receiving compensation are now out on the street. Any company that is up front with their pay rates and work schedules is not "screwing" the employees. They did not come to your home with a gun and say "You're a pilot and you need to work for me at this wage". Every employee sent a resume to the company and asked for a job based on the wages they offered. As a matter of fact, they wanted the job so bad that they signed a one year contract for the privilege to work there. Once employed at an agreed compensation, they want to make the employer change his business plan and lose even more money to increase their compensation. Sounds to me like the unethical people are not the employers.
    My plan is for all pilots who think they are worth so much to band together and start their own airline. They can set the industry standard. Pay everyone alot of money, fly on their own schedule and live the dream. Since pilots are such a valuable asset and have all the answers, these airlines will probably be sprouting up all over. Maybe a better solution is: next time you are on a flight, talk to the passengers in back and tell them of your plight and your plan to have them pay more in order to provide you a pay raise.
    Everyone sets their own value by accepting employment at an offered rate. If you are worth more, then why do you accept less? This is just basic economics not rocket science. Hillary Clinton probably has an entitlement plan that will help.
    I don't work for TMC and never will. You can agree or disagree with their company wages and policies. The simple solution is not to work there.

  9. #29
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    You know what annoys me? When someone enters a debate without bothering to research the topic and then goes off on some "Hillary Clinton" tangent.

    So, to save you the effort of going back to reread this thread, I'll recap:

    1) TMC hired dozens of pilots BEFORE they published a full payscale. Those pilots took their positions assuming that the pay would be better than what it eventually was. Among those is a former co-worker of mine who said that he would never have taken the job had he known that and most pilots he knows have said the same thing.

    2) I listed FIVE companies that ALL pay better than TMC with better benefits, all of which are hiring. The implication being, if you are interested in working at TMC, you might be better off looking at these companies, assuming that industry standard pay and benefits are what you seek.

    3) If 5 out of 5 companies using a similar schedule and aircraft can survive paying better wages and benefits than TMC, one of two things is going on: a) They (TMC) are operating with a poor business plan or b) Someone is taking profit at the expense of the pilots (also known as SCREWING the pilots).
    Last edited by *#$% Headwinds; 12-05-2007 at 20:12.

  10. #30
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    Someone is taking profit at the expense of the pilots (also known as SCREWING the pilots).

    Headwinds,

    I am sorry. You are right. Any company that strives to make profit, should not keep any of the profit that they RISKED millions of dollars for. Just give it to the employees who have zero invested in the business and nothing to lose. A pilot's license and college entitle you to endless wealth. The pilots that hired on probably did so without knowing what to expect as far as pay. It was probably a secret. They probably did no research and have no judgement. They are the victims. I would have thought a college education would prevent being taking advantage of by these bad people (Employers) The employer probably promised them six figures and a Net Jets pay scale. He probably asked the pilot, why are you thinking of working here? Why aren't you taking a job at one of the 5 other companies that Headwinds noted? They must not know you are available, otherwise your phone would be ringing off the hook. You are such a rare and valuable person. Wow... a pilot's license and a college degree. You are entitled. The bad employer who is going to invest an additional $20k-$40k per year in training these gifts to god should be grateful.
    Some people are born to complain and they will no matter what. Others concentrate on doing the best job they can to make their employer profitable. A happy, profitable employer with good employees is more likely to take care of his crew. Employers with a bunch of winers, are happy to see the winers leave. What a relief.
    Most of the jobs that I have accepted had no guarantee. A starting salary, some research and a little judgement has been my formula. I make well over 100k and put my employer first. I make sure they are provided safe transporation and excellent service. Strive to become an asset to your employer and not a wining liability. You get recognized for what you are.

    Eventhough we have differing view points, I sincerely hope things work out for you and your friends. As I stated earlier, the supply and demand ratio is experiencing a big swing and pilots will see their value increase significantly. I appreciate the aviation owners being the entrepeneurs that they are. I hope they make lots of profit and buy bigger and better aircraft for all of us to fly. I do not condone their actions, I embrace them. Their risks and sacrifices make good paying jobs for good people a reality.

    I certainly am not smart or motivated enough to create the wealth that supports these operations.

    Take Care and Good Luck,
    Corp Pilot

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