If/When Spirit Strikes

[SWA/FO]

I just want to make sure I can still post. I was recently warned about calling someone out as a strike breaker and picket line crosser. I also named this person. My bad.

 

[AirCobra]

no you haven't gone into detail. But you'll say you have...What have you got to lose?
Why is Air Wisconsin trying it then?

Weak attempt. Again... logical fallacy. Why not bring up any strike in the history of labor?
I am trying to make heads or tales of this.

You talk about strikes and then say I shouldn't bring them up? Moving right along..

You can ask me why the sky is blue. That doesn't mean I am obligated to answer. You stated in house alliances were better, while you are not obligated to answer, displaying the ability not to back up what you've said only shows your ignorance. Look, anyone can say anything... what separates the knowledgeable from the idiots is the ability to justify what they've said. Can you do it?
Well okay then I am a fervent follower of the Air Wisconsin's MEC's approach over your "Strike, Strike, Strike" branch of ALPA. I feel little has been accomplished by your version of ALPA so I think we need to take a different approach. How can I give you results if we never try doing anything different becuase no admits anything is wrong? Luckily in this case we have Air Wisconsin and they should be a good test of what I am taking about, and if Spirit strikes and winds up like Eastern, Comair, United and Northwest have, well that will tell us a lot about your way won't it? Probably not becuase you guys will claim victory no matter what happens.

Again... anyone can say anything. I think speed of light space travel is the best way to go the Mars and beyond and NASA are fools for not doing it. Get it? Probably not.
Nope you don't understand how your own analogy does not apply. PCL said coalitions are nothing new so obviously they have been tried before, Air Wisconsin is trying a different approach right now. As far as I know speed of light travel has not been invented. Get it?

I thought you wanted to get away from anaolgies anyway. Why do you keep creating new ones?

,

The burden is on you. It is your idea. No is responsible for debunking your thoughts and ideas. No one is going to waste time debunking the ideas of idiots. The idiots have to prove themselves intelligent before they will be taken seriously. It is well within reason to simply dismiss general ideas with no substance.

You have to show why it is a good idea and convince others to take your idea, work for change and make it happen. This is very difficult in human dynamics. Most people don't have the skillset, simply give up, state they hate politics, hate ALPA and just criticize. This is you. These are the haters. They lack the ability to formulate ideas into pragmatic action.....


Wow you just called me and Air Wisconsin's MEC idiots. Can't keep away from those code of ethics viloations can you? Hater, idiot, fraud, yeah Rez whatever. Any one who disagrees with you is of questionable intelligence and humanity. I got it. Now tell me again who has the ego problem.

 

[AirCobra]

Negative. Many haters have tried the CoE tact, it is an indication that they have no game.

First off.... Please provide your ALPA number so I can verfiy you are in fact an ALPA pilot for whom the CoE applies.

Second, this is a moniker message board and you are under no obligation to be here and this this is not a job location.


Another homerun hit off your weak pitches. C'mon... throw me another....

If this is how you live your life you have lost the game.

 

[PCL_128]

Just a coincidence then that those three airlines are the weakest ones?

Another falsehood. NWA was far from weak prior to the merger. They were actually in a very good position, and are now in an even stronger position. Comair is also far from weak, although Delta has done a good job of weakening our bargaining position at the FFD carriers by spreading the flying around. That is one area in which we need to improve as a union, and we're working on it. Yes, UAL is weak, but that's not a result of a pilot contract signed in 1985. The idea that you would even try to link the two is just mind boggling. The reason UAL is weak is because of weak management. Mr. Tilton is all but useless. His only strategy is to beg someone to merge with UAL, and there seems to be only one carrier even slightly interested, and they don't exactly seem thrilled at the idea. This is a business plan?

You need to stop blaming unions for bad management.

Sure it is.

This is your idea of debate? A classic "I'm rubber, you're glue" strategy. Well played.

Here's how it works: you made an assertion, so you have the burden of proof. Prove that there are legacy rampers making more than junior legacy pilots.

Not at all, I even said I made a mistake.

I must have missed that. Glad to hear it.

and other IAM contracts don't have that provision.

Virtually all of them do, and for good reason.

Did you forget about the bargaining process?

The bargaining process is useless without leverage, and the only leverage we have is the threat of self-help. Companies only bargain because of coercion, not because they want to pay you more and give you a better quality of life out of the goodness of their hearts.

Do you then believe the AW MEC's actions were wrong?

Of course not. As I said, this is a strategy that has been employed previously and it has been successful. But again, you're missing the whole point of the strategy: the threat of a job action. The AWA MEC's labor coalition is not a strategy in and of itself, it is a complement to a broader strategy that includes, as the key element, the threat of self-help. You want to remove the key element, which renders the whole thing useless.

You need to figure some things out son.

Don't embarrass yourself. Trying to resort to this sort of thing is proof positive that you're losing the debate. It's obvious to everyone here.

Listening to Rez will only make miserable. He is all about creating dissension among people for his own personal gain and screwing others to get ahead. Rez does not believe in personal responsibility, he is all about blaming others for his shortcomings. Don't become like him.

Rez has been a friend of mine for a while, and your characterization is completely inaccurate.

while you have done contribute to the problems our industry is facing by flying an RJ for peanuts and working for a predatory discount airline.

You can't even place blame where it belongs, probably because you would have to share in it. The pilots flying the RJs are not to blame for your job being outsourced, AC; YOU and your fellow mainline pilots are responsible. Scope is a permissive subject of bargaining, meaning your pilot group had no obligation to even talk to management about scope concessions, yet you chose to do so in order to buy other improvements. Don't blame the guys flying the RJs for your mistakes.

Regarding AirTran, I'll put our product up against any other carrier's domestic product any day of the week and twice on Tuesday.

How long has Air Tran been in ALPA, like 20 minutes. Sorry that its hard to take you seroiusly when you are going to tell us all how things should be done.

I was doing ALPA work long before I came to AirTran. What ALPA work have you done? What experience in this type of work can you point to in order to lend credibility to your positions? None? Thought so.

 

[pilotyip]

Hey we are buddies

No one is diminishing the contributions of other labor groups.... if anyone one is... it is your buddy YIP!

It is offical, it has been blessed by Rez. Keep up the great work, it nice to see someone who deals in the labour-management realities and has a bigger picture than "me me me, if I don't get my way I will shut the place down to show who is boss".

 

[Mike man]

Ramp workers don't get $6.50 an hour, they get upwards of $20.00 an hour. Many or trained and licensed to operate heavy equipment and are paid for their skill. They can cause millions in damages, and an improperly loaded aircraft or an improperly secured cargo door could cause an aircraft to crash. Saying they are unskilled diminishes their profession and their professionalism. The are mostly union employees you know so they are not just summarily fired as you seem to think. They are screened and trained by the airline, while others are hired for skills they received on their own, such as heavy equipment operators, and most are part of the IAM. Next time you are at the airport go to a gate where they are loading a 747 then tell me it takes no skill and those guys incur no liability. Don't be an another arrogant pilot, we have enough of those in our profession as it is.

Wages for the ramp workers start at about $10 an hour, said Chris Moore, chairman of the Teamsters Aviation Mechanics Coalition, which represents 18,500 mechanics at 10 airlines. After 10 years, lead agents earn a little more than $21 an hour, he said.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/6864450.html

So I was off by 4.50.

Anyway, I'm not saying it doesn't take a specialized skill (no high school diploma) to work on the ramp. I can assure you that it does not take more than 15 minutes driving a tug or baggage cart to completely master all the intricacies of the machine.

 

[AirCobra]

Another falsehood. NWA was far from weak prior to the merger. They were actually in a very good position, and are now in an even stronger position. Comair is also far from weak, although Delta has done a good job of weakening our bargaining position at the FFD carriers by spreading the flying around. That is one area in which we need to improve as a union, and we're working on it. Yes, UAL is weak, but that's not a result of a pilot contract signed in 1985. The idea that you would even try to link the two is just mind boggling. The reason UAL is weak is because of weak management. Mr. Tilton is all but useless. His only strategy is to beg someone to merge with UAL, and there seems to be only one carrier even slightly interested, and they don't exactly seem thrilled at the idea. This is a business plan?

You need to stop blaming unions for bad management.
I am not blaming unions, i am blaming certain union tactics and union certain mindsets.



This is your idea of debate? A classic "I'm rubber, you're glue" strategy. Well played.


Here's how it works: you made an assertion, so you have the burden of proof. Prove that there are legacy rampers making more than junior legacy pilots.

Please go look at any IAM contract then look at FO pay.



The bargaining process is useless without leverage, and the only leverage we have is the threat of self-help. Companies only bargain because of coercion, not because they want to pay you more and give you a better quality of life out of the goodness of their hearts.



Of course not. As I said, this is a strategy that has been employed previously and it has been successful. But again, you're missing the whole point of the strategy: the threat of a job action. The AWA MEC's labor coalition is not a strategy in and of itself, it is a complement to a broader strategy that includes, as the key element, the threat of self-help. You want to remove the key element, which renders the whole thing useless.
Srtikes are not one size fits all. I believe in Spirit's case it would be a mistake


Don't embarrass yourself. Trying to resort to this sort of thing is proof positive that you're losing the debate. It's obvious to everyone here.
I may lose the debate but my character reamins in tact. In one of my first posts I said you rabib ALPA cheerleaders would attack me. Well you did not disappoint. You guys have resorted to name calling and violations of our code of ethcis in your efforts to personally diminsh Yip, Mamma and I, not to mention so many others in previous threads.. So you win the debate but you have lost a lot of self respect.


Rez has been a friend of mine for a while, and your characterization is completely inaccurate.

Well that explains alot. I can only judge him by the character of his posts from false accusations, trying to disparage the relief efforts in Haiti, to outright lying, and selective amnesia. He paints himself as a pretty reprehensible character. Just moments ago he said he had the right to post whatever he wanted about fellow ALPA pilots because this wasn't a job site. I suggest if he is your friend to have a talk with him. Don't play Harry to his Lloyd


You can't even place blame where it belongs, probably because you would have to share in it. The pilots flying the RJs are not to blame for your job being outsourced, AC; YOU and your fellow mainline pilots are responsible.

Scope is a permissive subject of bargaining, meaning your pilot group had no obligation to even talk to management about scope concessions, yet you chose to do so in order to buy other improvements. Don't blame the guys flying the RJs for your mistakes.

Hey another Rez. Who made you take an FO job for $19.00 an hour? Didn't think of the consequences did you? as long as you were getting what you wanted out of it. You mortgaged your future in this industry and kept guys on furlough for turbine time. We gave concessions to save some of our jobs becuase like Rez said, there was a ready and willing number of guys like you, willing to come along and undercut us. So spare me the crocodile tears about how mean AirTran is to you, because now you are in the postion I was in ten years ago. Sucks to be you doesn't it.




I was doing ALPA work long before I came to AirTran. What ALPA work have you done? What experience in this type of work can you point to in order to lend credibility to your positions? None? Thought so.
What can you point to? Dragging down the industry in partnership with management. Turning a great profession into a whiny bunch of high gel wearing glorified bus drivers or was it remaining silent while your friends make accusations against ALPA pilots. I would have perferred you do nothing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All three strikes were highly effective and accomplished a great deal for the profession. What is your point? Are you trying to claim that those strikes drove these airlines into bankruptcy? If that's your point, then you're delusional. All three strikes happened many years prior to any bankruptcy filings, and in the case of UAL, several intermediate contracts separated the strike from the bankruptcy. The two items are completely unrelated. The strikes were effective.
Just a coincidence then that those three airlines are the weakest ones?Okay then we disagree, doesn't make anyone delusional. If Spirit stirkes and goes under or declares bankruptcy will you say the same thing? Are furloughed pilots or voided contracts your definition of stronger?


Simply not true.
Sure it is.



What makes you a union hater is your intentional violation of a labor union contract, and then trying to justify it to everyone here when they tell you you were wrong. And then, ironically, you want to talk about unity amongst different employee groups. Unbelievable!
Not at all, I even said I made a mistake. I was talking about better relationships between labor groups and perhaps things like that were somehing that needed to be addressed because late departures screw us all over, and other IAM contracts don't have that provision. The rest of my comments were to point out hyperbole and a self righteous attitude of people who have done, or will do the exact same thing, especially if they personally benefit. I give Lear props to at least admit what we all have done. Too bad for the rest of you. Hey but if it makes you feel better about yourself, then by all means, keep pretending.


I'm not sure why you keep coming back to this, because it's not a substitute for a job action. The entire purpose of these kinds of labor coalitions is to increase the effectiveness of a job action. Labor coalitions are designed increase the pressure on management by convincing them that if you go on strike, the other employee groups will honor your picket lines. Without the threat of a strike, the labor coalition has no teeth. This is what Rez keeps trying to tell you when he asks "where is the coercion?" Without the leverage of self help, all the coalitions in the world mean nothing.
Did you forget about the bargaining process? Do you then believe the AW MEC's actions were wrong?


You need to figure some things out son. Listening to Rez will only make miserable. He is all about creating dissension among people for his own personal gain and screwing others to get ahead. Rez does not believe in personal responsibility, he is all about blaming others for his shortcomings. Don't become like him.



The only one flailing here is you. Your only supporter on this thread is a member of management at a fourth-tier freight hauler that almost went out of business recently. Great company you're keeping there.

And his from a guy who got his flight time flying mainline domestic routes for half the pay, and who now works for ValuJet. I wouldn't insult someone like Yip who has hired and trained hundreds of pilots and gave lots of people a chance to learn to fly a jet the right way, while you have partially contributed to the problems our industry is facing by flying an RJ for peanuts and working for a predatory discount airline. So lets not start trying to measure integrity here.

The only supporter "in this thread" is a good caveat. I posted plenty of links and named plenty of people that have said many of the same things I have...oh I forgot they are all haters. PCL the drycleaners called, your ALPA Cheerleader uniform is ready.

Agreed. Now let's start with you admitting that it doesn't build unity to intentionally violate an IAM contract. Sound good?
I already did. Why don't you stop pretending your $hit don't stink. Sound good? How long has Air Tran been in ALPA, like 20 minutes. Sorry that its hard to take you seroiusly when you are going to tell us all how things should be done.

Always enlightening to see a 20 something school Grandpa.... gives faith in the future generations.....

 

[PCL_128]

AC, with that last post, I think it's pretty clear that you've lost this debate and are flailing wildly, hurling insults in a vain attempt to mask your failure. I see no point in continuing this exercise unless you decide to change your tone and actually start debating the issues.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

no you haven't gone into detail. But you'll say you have...What have you got to lose?
Why is Air Wisconsin trying it then?

Your question. Your answer.

Weak attempt. Again... logical fallacy. Why not bring up any strike in the history of labor?
I am trying to make heads or tales of this.

Very poorly no doubt. Why not stop posting and start reading. You've been schooled by someone the age of your grandchildren....

You talk about strikes and then say I shouldn't bring them up? Moving right along..

You need to stick with apples to apples. An amateur debate tactic is to try and move the discussion to apples and oranges. It is for the weak.

You can ask me why the sky is blue. That doesn't mean I am obligated to answer. You stated in house alliances were better, while you are not obligated to answer, displaying the ability not to back up what you've said only shows your ignorance. Look, anyone can say anything... what separates the knowledgeable from the idiots is the ability to justify what they've said. Can you do it?
Well okay then I am a fervent follower of the Air Wisconsin's MEC's approach over your "Strike, Strike, Strike" branch of ALPA. I feel little has been accomplished by your version of ALPA so I think we need to take a different approach. How can I give you results if we never try doing anything different becuase no admits anything is wrong? Luckily in this case we have Air Wisconsin and they should be a good test of what I am taking about, and if Spirit strikes and winds up like Eastern, Comair, United and Northwest have, well that will tell us a lot about your way won't it? Probably not becuase you guys will claim victory no matter what happens.

Brazo Zulu for thinking rationally. It is about time.

Quantify 'little has been accomplished". what does this mean?

Also, why is your AW example, a feeder/vendor the same as Spirit, a stand alone Brand?

No is saying Strike, strike, strike. I started this thread with If/When then we should support.

You are not a Spirit pilot. The arrogance of you coming on this thread and telling the Spirits pilots what they should do is amazing. You haven't walked in their shoes. Typical of right wing conservatives. No empathy and they expect everyone to think and act like they do.

Again... anyone can say anything. I think speed of light space travel is the best way to go the Mars and beyond and NASA are fools for not doing it. Get it? Probably not.
Nope you don't understand how your own analogy does not apply. PCL said coalitions are nothing new so obviously they have been tried before, Air Wisconsin is trying a different approach right now. As far as I know speed of light travel has not been invented. Get it?

I thought you wanted to get away from anaolgies anyway. Why do you keep creating new ones?

I just finished schooling you. Spirit is not ARW. Let Spirit do what it thinks is best. The only dog in this discussion is your ego.

The question remains. If they strike will you support them?

The burden is on you. It is your idea. No is responsible for debunking your thoughts and ideas. No one is going to waste time debunking the ideas of idiots. The idiots have to prove themselves intelligent before they will be taken seriously. It is well within reason to simply dismiss general ideas with no substance.

You have to show why it is a good idea and convince others to take your idea, work for change and make it happen. This is very difficult in human dynamics. Most people don't have the skillset, simply give up, state they hate politics, hate ALPA and just criticize. This is you. These are the haters. They lack the ability to formulate ideas into pragmatic action.....


Wow you just called me and Air Wisconsin's MEC idiots. Can't keep away from those code of ethics viloations can you? Hater, idiot, fraud, yeah Rez whatever. Any one who disagrees with you is of questionable intelligence and humanity. I got it. Now tell me again who has the ego problem.

Nope. Nice logical fallacy again. Apples to donuts. The ARW guys are smart and are doing what is best for ARW pilots. The Spirit guys are smart and are doing what is best for Spirit pilots.

Why do you think what is best for ARW is best for Spirit? Why does one size fit all?

And where is your radical change at ALPA idea. Let's hear it.